ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 1: CAN A PERSON LOSE THEIR SALVATION ONCE SAVED?

Once a person faces death, there will only be 2 choices of where they will spend eternity. They will either enjoy being in God’s presence or be separated from him. One minute after you die you will either be enjoying a personal welcome from Christ or catching your first glimpse of gloom as you have never known it. Either way, your future will be irrevocably fixed and eternally unchangeable.

Those who find themselves in Heaven will be surrounded with many friends they have known on earth. Every description of Heaven they have ever heard will pale in light of reality. But others will find themselves shrouded in darkness in a region of deprivation and unbearable regret. For them, death will be far worse than they ever imagined.

So while relatives and friends plan your funeral, you will be more alive than you have ever been. You will either see God on His throne surrounded by angels and redeemed humanity, or you will feel an indescribable weight of guilt and abandonment. There is no destination midway between these extremes.

Imagine for a moment that there are a group of people enjoying themselves on the top stories of a very tall apartment building – not knowing that there is a fire burning on the lower floors. In a similar way, many people are enjoying life now, comfortably ignoring the fact that their death is not only inevitable, but much nearer than they think. Indeed, this world and all we have accumulated will eventually be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

The biggest deception ever perpetrated on mankind is the notion that all will get to go to Heaven without possessing the right credentials. You will not be there because your wife has a right to enter. You will not be there because you have a child who is already there. This is an individual matter, and only those with the right credentials will be allowed entry.

Our problem, of course, is that God will not accept us on our terms. We cannot arrive at Heaven’s gates hoping for leniency. “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). We cannot come pleading for special favors once we have slipped from this life into eternity.

In this article, it is my intention to first present the action that one must take to remedy this dire problem, then once the way and the how of salvation is explained and understood, it will then be my intention to present the answer to the question of whether or not salvation can be lost for any reason after it has been received. It will be presented in a debate format. But for now, let’s continue to examine how it is first received.

OUR ONLY HOPE

Our only hope is for God to give us credit for righteous perfection we could never attain on our own.  Once such righteousness is credited to our account, we can enter Heaven immediately at death without so much as an intermediate stop. As the Bible says, “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8).

THE PROBLEM

Salvation is not dependent upon whether or not we are successful at turning from our sinful life. It’s recognizing that we are hopelessly unable to save ourselves because of the fallen nature that we all  inherited from the first man Adam. The spirit of every living human being that was ever born and ever will be born is in a state of death. There is nothing we can individually do about it. It has to be regenerated back to life. The sins that we human beings commit is only a symptom of the much bigger problem. Our spirits, the part of us that will live on in eternity, is in a state of death. In order for us to escape damnation, our spirits must be brought back to life through the regeneration of our spirit.

This fact is precisely why Jesus said you  must be “born again” to enter Heaven …

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is what being “born again” means. It means that when one receives Christ as his or her savior by trusting on him alone and personally receiving him as his or her substitute, the spirit of God literally and instantly inhabits the body of said person and instantly regenerates an individual’s spirit back to life from its state of death. Romans 6:11 puts it this way…

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:11).

Here, we see that this verse of scripture confirms and reinforces what Christ said about having to be “born again.”

Here’s how that is possible: When Christ died on the cross, He offered himself as a sacrifice for sinners, which God accepted …

“For our sake he [God] made him [Christ] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Though Christ was perfect, God made Him legally guilty of all of our sins. In turn, those who believe that Christ did this for them receive credit for his righteousness before God. But this is not an automatic given for each and every individual ever born. It is only for those who personally choose to believe and trust in the ultimate sacrifice that Christ paid for. This given righteousness that we cannot possibly earn is reserved for only those who have consciously and deliberately made the decision to receive Christ, and thus, become “born again” in him.

Christ was considered to be a sinner when he took our sins on himself. In turn God considers us to be saints when we receive Christ’s righteousness. God has exceedingly high standards, but thanks to him, he meets them for us through this amazing exchange. It’s the only way we could ever enter God’s Heaven. When we receive Christ’s righteousness, God also changes our whole perspective.

So, how can we receive the gift of righteousness and be “born again”? The answer is to admit our helplessness and sinfulness to God, and to acknowledge that we are dependent on his mercy. We must have a complete change of mind about whatever we were believing would make us acceptable to God. Instead, we must transfer all of our trust to Christ as our sin-bearer. We must believe in Him as the One who did all that we will ever need to stand in God’s holy presence. To “believe in Christ” means that as best we know, we trust Him alone for all that we need to please God in this life and to live with him forever in Heaven. This trust includes NOT relying upon our own works of righteousness to gain the proper credentials …

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20).

It is a sobering thought that Jesus revealed that the majority of people will not make it to Heaven but will be separated from God for a very long period of time – only to then be destroyed and cease to exist.  Hopefully, this gets your attention …

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it” (Matthew 7:13:14).

“Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that “does the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 21:23).                                        

The question is, what is this “will” that God requires out of each and every person to ensure their soul from being damned and eventually destroyed? Throughout the Bible, it is made explicitly clear that no amount of right living or good deeds can secure a person’s eternal future in Heaven. We see the exact “will” that God requires for salvation revealed in John 6:40 from the very mouth of Jesus himself when he states …

“This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:40).

Interestingly, we are told by none other than Jesus himself that we must “believe” on the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sin nature and receive him into our hearts by faith. This requires one to believe that Christ is who he said he is, the Son of God and thus, God incarnate in human flesh. Faith, or the belief in Christ, is the key ingredient for one’s salvation. If that is missing, one is in a lost condition and will be damned. This faith requires one to perform a certain act. This act is revealed in Romans 10:13 …

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN AND YOU: WHAT YOU MUST DO TO RECEIVE IT

In order to accept the offer of God’s grace and his salvation, you must take the crucial three steps of

1. Agreeing – A belief and agreeing with God in all that he says in his word, the Bible, about the fact that you are separated from God, as every man and woman on the face of the earth are before accepting his salvation.  The Bible reveals that all are separated from him in a spiritual state of death, or said another way that the Bible reveals it, in a state of sin, that will result in damnation in the afterlife.  Agreeing with God in your heart that you are in need of his salvation.  The Bible reveals that God looks upon the heart of a man or woman, and thus, responds accordingly to the person who comes to him for salvation in recognition of his inability to save himself.  The Bible makes these facts very clear – “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).  “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).  The Bible describes these three kinds of death:

• physical death (the state experienced when life leaves our bodies).

• spiritual death (spiritual separation from God caused by our state of spiritual death inherited from the first man Adam – the state of sin that results in our daily outward acts of sin, whether deliberate or not, whether omissive or not; and finally …

• the second death (the fixed state entered into by the individual who dies physically while he or she is dead spiritually). This state is entered into after the death of the body which results in punishment in the afterlife until the event of the Great White Throne Judgment occurs wherein the damned are resurrected from Hades, or Hell, and are judged according to their works and finally destroyed and cease to exist after being cast into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 14 refers to this tragic end of the unsaved as the “Second Death” (verse 14). It is this state of suffering entered into after physical death and then final destruction at the Great White Throne Judgment in particular which is the horrible result of receiving the wages of sin (unforgiven due to unbelief and rejection of Christ). The Lord Jesus Christ frequently described such a death as being irrevocable in a destiny which he called Hell.  He described Hell as a literal place of judgment (Matthew 13:42); a place of everlasting fire (Matthew 18:8); a place of torment (Luke 16:24,28); a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50); a place of remorse (Mark 9:44-48); of bitter memory (Luke 16:25), and a place originally prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).  In fact, Jesus more often warned about Hell than he spoke about Heaven.

It is not God’s will or desire that any person should be consigned to perish in Hell (2 Peter 3:9), but rather that all should come to repentance of unbelief toward him and believe on him for the salvation of the individual’s soul.  But God’s justice requires that the “soul who sins” (remains in it’s state of death or state of sin) is the one who will die a second time after a long period of torment (Ezekiel 18:4).  So, agree with God, admitting that you are unable to save yourself and in a state of sin under God’s just condemnation for that sin and that you are in need of his salvation.

2. Believing – Then, believe that God does not want you to perish eternally in the torment of Hell because of your sin.  Believe that God loves you so much that he provided a way whereby he could still be a just, holy and righteous God, and yet pardon you.  Believe that God did not just overlook sin, but that he sent his only begotten son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to provide salvation by personally paying the penalty for sin.  Believe that Jesus Christ, whose life, death, burial and resurrection is the best-attested fact of antiquity, did come to earth to live, die, rise again and ascend to Heaven in order to provide justification and salvation for all who trust him.  Believe that he, and he alone, can save you because he has fully satisfied the just demands of God.  Believe that you can’t become righteous in God’s sight by your own effort.  Believe that he wants to save you and that he will save you.  The Bible provides a solid basis for such belief …

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved” (John 3:16-17). 

“But God demonstrates his love toward us in this:  while we were yet sinners,  Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). 

God presented him (Jesus Christ) as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood.  He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished – he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies the man or woman who has faith in Jesus (Romans 3:25-26). 

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures … ” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). 

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). 

“Jesus answered, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).  “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28).

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out [drive away]” (John 6:37).

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me” (Revelation 3:20).

3. Calling – It is not enough to agree with God, admit your need, and believe that Christ can and will save you.  You must act upon those facts. God’s requirement is that you repent of your unbelief toward him and actively call upon him for the salvation of your soul based on the fact that you cannot save yourself. It is unbelief in particular that damns the soul to its horrible fate …

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

You must be willing to completely turn from your own efforts to save yourself or from any other hope.  You must come to Christ, calling upon him for salvation and counting on the fact that he will do what he has promised.  This means simply taking the gift of pardon and eternal life which he offers.  Merely believing about Jesus Christ without coming to him makes as much sense and is as effective as believing that a medication can successfully treat a fatal disease, but failing to take it.  Yet again, the Bible emphatically and authoritatively provides the basis for such statements.

The word translated “believe” here means to “rest one’s entire weight and trust on the object or person in which the belief is placed.”  It requires action in keeping with the intellectual assent of that belief.

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

” … but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

The logical question you may be asking at this point is:  “how do I come to Christ and call upon him?”  The answer is that “calling upon the Lord” is just another term for praying, or talking to God.  To talk to God is not a complicated process, dependent upon some special rituals.  God has invited people to approach him through his Son in simple, straightforward terms.  In fact, Jesus approved of the dishonest, despised tax collector who simply prayed, “God be merciful to me, a sinner.”  While the exact words of your prayer to God are not of vital importance (since God sees and knows the attitude of your heart), the following is the kind of prayer that you could pray in calling upon God for salvation …

“Dear Lord Jesus:  I realize that I need you.  I admit that I have sinned and that I deserve your just, eternal punishment for that sin.  But I am sorry for my sin and I am turning to you and asking for forgiveness.  I believe that you died and rose again to pay sin’s penalty on my behalf.  I come to you and open my heart to you.  I ask you to come into my life, forgive me for all of my sin and make me your child.  I invite you to take control of my life and to cause me to be the kind of person you would have me to be.  I thank you for doing this because you have promised that whosoever calls upon you, as I am doing now, shall be saved.  I pray this in the name of your Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Amen.”

If this prayer expresses the desire of your heart, I urge you to sincerely and genuinely express it to God as your prayer.  The Bible makes clear that when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in our heart, God forgives our sins and counts us righteous, and that when we openly confess with our mouth what we have done in our heart,  God gives us assurance of that salvation (Romans 10:9-10).

An important fact to remember is that Christ warned that one must be “born again” in order to enter the Kingdom of God and make it to Heaven and avoid eternal damnation…

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:3-7).

Now that the way of salvation is known and hopefully acted upon by you the unsaved reader, it is just as important to understand the answer to the controversial question of whether or not one can possibly lose their salvation once it has been received.

The short and simple answer to this question is no. Scripture plainly bears this out. However, there is a very deep and divisive controversy amongst theologians and Bible scholars as to whether salvation can be lost or not. The people who say yes, it can be lost, have a myriad of scriptures they can point to from the Bible in order to justify that opinion. However, upon an honest and detailed closer examination of those scriptures, one will begin to realize that these scriptures are wholly taken out of context and cherry picked, and in reality, proclaim the exact opposite.

Cherry picking definition:  “(also known as: suppressed evidence, fallacy of incomplete evidence, argument by selective observation, argument by half-truth, card stacking, fallacy of exclusion, ignoring the counter evidence, one-sided assessment, slanting, one-sidedness).  Description: When only select evidence is presented in order to persuade the audience to accept a position, and evidence that would go against the position is withheld. The stronger the withheld evidence, the more fallacious the argument.

FormerMPSGT … The Bible Says Revelations 5:3 look at this verse, I have never had a person address the meaning of this, only come back at it with their Eternal Security Indoctrination: Revelations 5:3 NAME BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE! Your Name has to be in the Book of life to be Saved, and Blotting it Out means YOU ARE NO LONGER SAVED! You cannot reinterpret this verse I light of your favored Doctrines you have been force fed by Calvinists! THIS VERSE SPEAKS PLAIN, Do not say a person was NEVER SAVED as that questions the Move/Act of the Holy Spirit in Salvation and that is Dangerous Ground!

END TIMES:  DARKNESS DESCENDING > FormerMPSGT … I’m Your Huckleberry

When it comes to the doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints, we need to speak with precision. I think it is not quite precise to say that in quite a few of the Scriptures it mentions you can be blotted out of the book of life. It doesn’t ever say you can be blotted out, at least not in the sense that sometimes God does it …

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels” (Revelation 3:5).

Some say: Well, that is a foolproof text against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints or eternal security. They assume that when Revelation 3:5 says that God will not erase a person’s name from the book of life, it implies that he does erase some people from the book of life, and that these people would once be born again, justified, saved, and, nevertheless, in the end condemned, lost, and perish. In other words, they lose their salvation on that reading of the verse, but this is not the correct assumption to make.

The promise: “I will not erase his name from the book of life” does not imply that some do have their names erased. It simply says, to the one who is in the book, and who conquers in faith: I will never wipe your name out. In other words, being erased is a fearful prospect, which I will not allow to happen to those who overcome. The Bible’s definition of what an overcomer is can be found in 1 John 5 …

“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:5).

As you can clearly see, overcoming is not predicated on outward acts and works to maintain your salvation. The Bible presents it in a certain context, and that context is wrapped up in your saving faith. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 5:5. In fact, there are two other passages in Revelation that teach that to have your name in the book of life means that you will most definitely persevere and conquer and thus meet the required condition (1 John 5:5) not to be blotted out …

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).

This verse actually reveals that those whose names are written in the book of life definitely will not worship the beast. That is what it says. In other words, having your name in the book of life from the foundation of the world means God will keep you from folly. He will cause you to persevere in allegiance to God. Being in the book means you will not apostatize. You won’t forsake the faith …

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is” (Revelation 17:8).

This verse actually reveals that having your name in the book of life means you will be kept from marveling at the beast. Those whose names are not written in the book will marvel at the beast, and those whose names are in the book will not marvel. It is infallible. To have your name in the book means you won’t marvel, you won’t worship. So the point is that having one’s name written in the book is effective. It keeps you from making shipwreck of your faith. John does not say “If you worship the beast, your name is erased.” He says: “If your name is in the book, you will not worship the beast.”

Now back to Revelation 3:5 …

“The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life.”

Does that mean God erases some people? The answer is a definite No. The conquering that keeps you from being erased is guaranteed by being in the book (your saving faith of 1 John 5:5). That is the point of Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. Being in the book keeps you from doing what would get you erased from the book if you did it. Let me say that again – being in the book – having your name in the book – keeps you from doing (like worshiping the beast) keeps you from doing what would get you erased from the book if you did it. All believers are “overcomers” in that they have been granted victory over the sin and unbelief of the world (again, 1 John 5:5). Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it something like this: “If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!” But this is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning. Never does Scripture say that God erases a believer’s name from the Lamb’s Book of Life—there is never even a warning that he is contemplating it! The wonderful promise of Revelation 3:5 is that Jesus will NOT erase one’s name. Speaking to the “overcomers”—all those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb (1 John 5:5)—Jesus gives His word that He will not delete their names. He affirms that, once a name is there, it is there forever. This is based on the faithfulness of God. The promise of Revelation 3:5 is directed to believers, who are secure in their salvation.

In contrast, the warning of Revelation 22:19 is not directed to believers, it is directed to unbelievers, who, rather than change their hearts toward God, attempt to change God’s Word to suit themselves. Such people will not eat of the tree of life. Verse 18 gives a clue for whom the warning is for because the consequence are the plagues of the prophecies. Church believers will not be present during the tribulation, having been raptured out of this world and therefore cannot have the plagues “added to him” – the Christian will be in Heaven! Thus the verses points to unbelievers.

Verse 19 also gives a clue for whom the warning is being directed – it is those that could enter the New Jerusalem, because those that take away from the Word will lose his part from the tree of life and the holy city, which is the New Jerusalem. The tree of life will reside in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2) and those saved from the great tribulation shall eat thereof. New Jerusalem is principally for Jews – the remnant that turn to God (Romans 9:27), which quotes Old Testament prophecy, and gentiles saved during tribulation (as a result of the converted Jews evangelizing the world – Revelation 14). The warning therefore relates to those that hear and understand the prophecy then deliberately pervert and corrupt it: it is applicable to the Last Days, therefore, to the people who are in the tribulation, but has a broader application, to the whole of scripture and therefore to unbelievers, not saved believers.

The bottom line here is that being erased from the book of Life is a very misinterpreted verse of scripture as you can plainly now see. It does not mean what you think it means.

EDITOR’S NOTE:  NO RESPONSE AS OF YET (crickets).

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING … ANYBODY ELSE WANT SOME OF THIS!!?? 

Stephen Russell
This Stanley guy will have to answer for his lies at the judgment.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > Stephen Russell … WELL, WELL, LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE HERE … AND WHO MIGHT YOU BE?  STEPHEN RUSSELL YOU SAY?  DRAW THAT GUN AND THROW DOWN SON!!!!! … I SAID THROW DOWN!!!!

Russel stepped forth with his scriptural armament, confident that he had a victory waiting.  In confident assurance, Russel drew suddenly and without warning … guns blazing …

Stephen Russell > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING … I think Jesus was pretty clear in the Sermon on the Mount: there is a wide path that leads to eternal destruction, and there is a narrow path that leads to eternal life. How and why this Stanley guy preaches that you can walk the wide path yet reach the narrow path’s destination is beyond me. This guy teaches contrary to the word of God, and he misleads many. As Jesus said, there are blind leaders of the blind, and this Stanley guy is one of them.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+Stephen Russell
I respect everyone’s opinion, but I would have to disagree. Christ’s sermon on the Mount was not teaching that eternal security is a false idea. The sermon on the mount contains no hint of a believer ever being able to lose their salvation. I am curious about which part of the sermon on the mount makes you think that eternal security is a false teaching.

Stephen Russell > END TIMES:  DARKNESS DESCENDING
Stanley teaches that how one lives can’t impact where they end up. This is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING7 months ago (edited)
+Stephen Russell
Which teachings did Jesus speak of that would indicate that? The ten commandments were given in the old testament to show the Israelites there sin, they were not for the purpose to convey the idea that obeying them was enough for the remission of their sins and obtain right standing with God …

“For by the law is the {knowledge} of sin (Romans 3:20).

Notice that the law was given for the “knowledge” of sin, not for obeying them in order to attain and keep the salvation of your soul. The major point to be seen here is that obeying the law will neither result in salvation or maintain salvation. Romans 3 makes this point very clear as does many other scriptures. Many

times, Jesus was speaking in this sense that in our modern western minds, we take this to mean that works have something to do with it. You must remember who the audience was that he was speaking to. If works can determine where we end up, than the Bible has contradicted itself and we cannot trust it as the word of God. Those scriptures that you would think are teaching a works based salvation are largely taken out of context by a huge number of people. Always remember … context, context, context … it’s a beautiful thing.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING … Hello, you said, “Which teachings did Jesus speak of that would indicate that? The ten commandments…”

In the Gospels, Jesus was twice asked what one must do to inherent eternal life. Both times His answer was the same. Jesus never stated that how one lived was irrelevant to where one ended up. I can only suppose that one who states otherwise does not understand Jesus’ teachings.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING  You said, “If conditional salvation is true, we have a major contradiction, and as such, we cannot trust the bible…”

I would suggest that you need to reread the bible. The bible is full of conditions for those who would receive God’s blessings. If you want to lie, cheat, and steal, then what right do you think you have to expect God’s blessings?

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
It is important to understand the point that Jesus was making to the disciples. He was doing here what he was doing in the Old Testament with the Ten Commandments. He was showing them the insufficiency of their works to save them. He gave them a list of things to do and accomplish in order to point to them that, with men, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. I’m afraid you’re not understanding the context of this conversation in Mark 10. If Jesus was really saying what you think he was saying, then what are you going to do with John 6:39 which emphatically states from the very mouth of Jesus the following words …

“And this is the Father’s will who sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).

If that sounds contradictory to you, it should because it is. Jesus clearly says that he will lose no one, but raise it up again at the last day. This contradicts your view of Mark 10 and Jesus’ response to the disciples asking what they have to do to inherit eternal life. This means you are not understanding the context of Jesus statement to the disciples. Again, Jesus is not teaching a works based salvation in Mark 10, but he is showing them the insufficiency of their works and bringing them to a point of exasperation within themselves in order to show them that their works are insufficient, but that all things are possible with God. Always remember the correct context here. He was speaking to Jews who were Torah minded. He could also read their thoughts and their hearts. Context, Context, Context.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
As far as your comment about expecting God’s blessings are concerned, well, that speaks for itself. I don’t believe that you can live how you want to live and get God’s blessings. I think you and I are in full agreement on that point. I’m not saying that one will still be blessed by living any way they want to live, but as far as a born again believer not going to Heaven because of how he is living is concerned, I do have to disagree that the bible teaches conditions on inheriting eternal life and keeping it. The bible speaks of chastisement for the believer, which does not result in the loss of his or her salvation. Punishment is reserved for the wicked (the unsaved) which results in eternal separation from God. Blessings and eternal security are two different beasts.

STEPHEN RUSSEL > END TIMES:  DARKNESS DESCENDING .. Here is some of what you said, “I don’t believe that you can live how you want to live and get God’s blessings. …. I’m not saying that one will still be blessed by living any way they want to live, but as far as a born again believer not going to Heaven because of how he is living is concerned, I do have to disagree…”

Here is the problem with your position. You think that being saved is not a blessing from God! You claim God owes a person salvation if they say some prayer (but then are yet free to live however they want). This position of yours is contrary to what the bible teaches. So what do you think of the 2nd half of Matthew 18? Did not he who was forgiven have his sin debt reinstated because of his behavior? That parable right there blows away any chance of once-saved-always-saved.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
In Matthew 18, Christ isn’t speaking of delivering a child of his (born again believer) to tormentors in the sense of casting them into Hell if they don’t forgive a fellow believer their trespasses. The point Jesus is making here is that there are certain things that God will allow upon you because of your unforgiveness, which are considered “tormentors.” There is absolutely no hint whatsoever of the “tormentors” Christ spoke of in this conversation as being about a believer being cast into Hell because of unforgivness towards a fellow believer.

Secondly, your statement that I don’t believe that salvation is a blessing from God is ridiculously presumptuous. Of course salvation is a blessing from God. You have read into my statement something I was not saying at all. The point was that blessings that come with salvation and being a child of God won’t be there for you if you choose to be a rebellious believer. God does not “owe” us salvation because we whispered a prayer. The fact that someone would even whisper the prayer of forgiveness if said from the heart is proof positive that God is drawing that person to Christ through the Holy Spirit. When that happens, salvation occurs. It occurs because God promised and told us so.

Sorry, but I didn’t make the conditions and the method, God did. Who says that a person whispering that prayer has the attitude toward God that he is owed something? If someone is going to whisper that prayer, it is because of the fact that this person is being drawn to God in the first place, which results in salvation if you are sincerely repentant toward your unbelief in your heart. The Bible is clear that if you call upon the name of the Lord, you will be saved if you meet the required condition of belief upon the one who died for said person’s sins. God is looking at the heart. The prayer prayed is the outward manifestation of the inward belief upon Christ and asking him for forgiveness and salvation. If I didn’t believe in Christ but whispered the sinners prayer doesn’t make me saved. It’s not the prayer itself that is saving anyone. It is the belief and attitude of the heart that caused said person to pray that prayer that saved the person.

Sorry, but you are reading things into what I said that are not there in order to justify your opposing belief. What I am saying is purely biblical. You still haven’t answered the fact that what you believe contradicts John 6:39, which emphatically states that Jesus will lose no one, but raise them up on the last day.

Your Matthew 18 reference does nothing but point to your incorrect interpretation of what Jesus is getting at. Matthew 18 has nothing to do with an unforgiving believer losing their salvation and being given over to any Hellish tormentors from Hell. It is indirectly referring to the law of reciprocity. Nothing at all about losing one’s salvation.

Again, context, context, context. Remember, the bible cannot contradict itself. You have a major, major problem with your position because of John 6:39.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING

I said, ” So what do you think of the 2nd half of Matthew 18? Did not he who was forgiven have his sin debt reinstated because of his behavior? That parable right there blows away any chance of once-saved-always-saved.”

You said, “Christ isn’t speaking of delivering a child of his (born again believer) to tormentors in the sense of casting them into hell…”

You are free to interpret however you like, but you are doing nothing more than resisting the obvious. To be forgiven one’s sin debt is salvation, and to have that debt reinstated is to become unsaved. You can spin this however you want, but you are simply avoiding the obvious.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
He did not have his sin “reinstated,” for this is impossible. Man is a tri-part being … he is a body, soul and spirit. The part of a person that gets saved is the spirit, the flesh does not. When a person is saved, the spirit gets regenerated or reborn as a result of the spirit of God dwelling on the inside of them as a result of receiving Christ. His fellowship with God was tampered with, his relationship of salvation was not.

When one is born again, he cannot become “unborn” can he? The obvious answer is no, he cannot. Not only does your view contradict John 6:39, but it also contradicts Jesus’ statement of being born again. It’s very interesting that Jesus used that term of having to be born again in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus put an absolute lock on the concept of not being able to lose your salvation with just that one term he used. Again, when one is born in the natural, one can’t become unborn can he? Again, the answer is an obvious No. Your view has Jesus contradicting himself all over the place.

Further, if one could have his sin reinstated to his spirit, his spirit would then have to be unborn. This is a technical impossibility. Even further, your view would contradicts 1 John 3 which states the following amazing words …

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave

causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 3.

Further still, your view even contradicts Jesus’ statement in Mark 3 when he emphatically states the following …

“Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven men”. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Matthew 12: 31).

What is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? Hint, it’s not a verbally spoken curse word against the Holy Ghost. It is the rejection of Christ in unbelief. The reason is because you have rejected the only means of your salvation. The Holy Ghost is the one responsible for you knowing him in the first place. It’s the Holy Ghost that draws one to Christ to begin with. So, to reject Christ, you’ve rejected the Holy Ghost and thus you have committed blasphemy against him. Scripture bears this out.

So, bottom line, the only sin that cannot and will not be forgiven is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit … a person who rejects Christ a.k.a. the unsaved person. It’s impossible for a believer to “blaspheme” the Holy Ghost when the seed of the Holy Ghost is residing on the inside of a believer according to 1 John 3. This contradicts your view that sin is “reinstated” into one’s spirit based on the behavior of a believer. As you saw above, according to 1 John 3, this is impossible.

These clear cut points from biblical scripture “blows away” your idea that salvation can be lost. You cannot squirm your way around the idea of eternal security. It is a clear cut truth that the bible presents to us.

hearts1700
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING I couldn’t have said this better myself.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING You said, “He did not have his sin “reinstated”…”. You are just unable to process the truth. All you can do is lie to yourself. This self-deception may come home to roost one day.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
I’ve noticed that you cannot even begin to defend your position against the above mentioned scriptures in my previous comments. All you can really do is tell me that I’m “lying to myself.” I’m just quoting some simple scripture that paints the picture in black and white and gives the answer to the controversy. What is so hard to understand about those scriptures? It’s rather clear what they are saying. There is literally no room for misinterpretation.

So, how about that statement that Jesus made in John 6:39 where he said that he will not lose anyone, but raise them up on the last day? How about 1 John 3:9 declaring that sin cannot be “reinstated” to one’s Spirit? How about what Jesus said that you must be born again to be saved? Can one be unborn? I’m waiting for the answer.  With all due respect, I suspect you literally have no real answer for those above mentioned scriptures. I would think that those scriptures would be a blessing to your soul and your mind, not having to worry about if you’ll “make it” to Heaven or not. It must be a miserable existence always concerned about whether or not you’ll be “good enough” as a Christian or not to “make it to Heaven.” But instead of taking those scriptures as a blessing, it would seem that you are repulsed by what is intended to be a blessing from God. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – So, is your only defense against Matthew 18 one of avoidance and distraction? So is your only defense one of bringing scripture against scripture? Matthew 18 is pretty straight forward. A person can be forgiven by God and then unforgiven by God. There is no need to run for cover (unless you can’t handle what Jesus is saying).

So let’s get this straight. You can’t refute Matthew 18 directly, so your only defense is to run to some other scripture which you hope can overturn what Jesus said in Matthew 18. So you are going to attempt to set Jesus against Jesus in order to preserve your theology. Always striving but never quite able to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Perhaps one day you will have a more humble attitude.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
Avoidance and distraction? In case you missed it, I directly addressed it in one of my previous comments, but then again, you know that, so I won’t play these childish games with you. Distraction? … Hardly. I was showing how those scriptures contradict your interpretation of Matthew 18 and how scripture cannot contradict itself. That is hardly distraction. These two scriptures are not compatible with each other if your Interpretation of Matthew 18 is true. Where in there do you get the idea that I was “distracting” from it? I was directly addressing it.

My only defense is bringing scripture against scripture? A baffling statement to make indeed … I pointed those scriptures out because they are so obviously saying what I am pointing out they are saying. Guess what … they contradict your view of Matthew 18. So by clinging to your view of Matthew 18, you are shining a big spotlight on the incompatibility of your belief with what Jesus said in John 6:39, 1 John 3:9 and the concept of being born again. You really and honestly don’t see the contradiction in what these scriptures declare and your interpretation of Matthew 18? I noticed you still refuse to even address the fact that Jesus said he will lose no one. How does that jibe and compliment with what he said (in your view) in Matthew 18? Did Jesus, who was God incarnate, make a mistake and contradict himself on this issue? God is not an Indian giver. Want some scriptural evidence of that statement? Here’s yet even more scriptural evidence that contradicts your view of Matthew 18 …

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Here, you can see that eternal life is declared a “gift” from God. So what does God think about gifts? Answer …

“For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).

That means that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable … meaning that God is not going to take it away from you. This scripture directly contradicts your statement and belief that God is going to “unforgive” you. Again, pretty clear cut.

Run for cover you say? I’ve been addressing every point you’ve come at me with and proving it incorrect directly from scripture. What do you mean “running for cover?” You’ve consistently demonstrated that you have no answer for John 6:39 and 1 John 3:9, I can only assume you won’t have an answer for Romans 11:29 either.

You said “I can’t refute what Jesus said in Matthew 18 and so my only defense is to run to some other scripture and hopefully “overturn” what Jesus said in Matthew 18” Huh? Do you not see the obviousness of what all these scriptures I’m pointing to are saying? I’m merely pointing out that your interpretation of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 18, when compared with other scripture, is obviously in error because it contradicts other scripture … with the evidence. Again, I say that because scripture cannot and does not contradict itself. This isn’t a matter of “pitting Jesus against Jesus.” This is a matter of showing that scripture is contradicting itself with your interpretation of Matthew 18. Surely you can grasp that concept. So, it’s my “theology?” I’m afraid not. These scriptures are speaking for themselves. They do not need my “theological insertion.” What part of “gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29) and “I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39) don’t you understand?

Always striving but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? Huh? I think I just did come to the truth. It’s pretty clear cut with no room for misinterpretation.

A more humble attitude? It’s pretty hard to have an iron sharpening iron conversation with someone who is afraid to admit that their interpretation of a certain scripture may be incorrect in light of some pretty straight forward scripture that leaves no room for misinterpretation. Perhaps having an “arrogant attitude” is how you describe an honest and dissecting look at scripture with a fellow believer in order to better understand what God is saying. In any case, my humble apologies if you are taking it that way. I certainly don’t intend to come off like that. Just having an honest conversation, that is all.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
Hello DARKNESS, you said, “Which teachings did Jesus speak of that would indicate that [“that how one lives determines where they end up”]? … If works can determine where we end up, than the bible has contradicted itself…

Please tell me and those reading along where the contradictions are in these passages.

“…the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28-29).

“[God]who“will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Romans 2:6-10).

1st Corinthians 6:9. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of

God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And what should I say about other passages? Have you not read Ephsians 5:5-7? Or Galatians 5:21? Or Phillipians 3:17-19? Or the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?

So where is the error in these passages? They seem to be very clear in that how one lives determines where that one ends up.

Stephen Russell
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
Hello DARKNESS, here is some of what you said to me, “You do not understand the point that Jesus was making … If Jesus was really saying what you think he was saying [that how one lives determines where they end up], then what are you going to do with John 6:39 which emphatically states from the very mouth of Jesus the following words … “And this is the Father’s will who sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” Sound contradictory to you? It should because it is. … .Context, Context, Context.

I would ask you consider that what God desires (wills) and what He gets are two different things. Have you not read where Peter said,, “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” So God’s will is that all come to repentance. But do they? The answer is, ‘no’. So when the Father says that He wills that none be lost, He is expressing His desire, and not a statement of what will actually come to pass. So as God desires that all repent, (but not all do), so He desires that none be lost (but many do become lost).

The issue you have is that you do not recognize that man has moral volition (the ability to choose) and that God does not force His desires upon men. An individual man is free to accept or reject what God offers. God does not force the choice upon him. John 6:39 was never meant to imply OSAS..

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+Stephen Russell
The scriptures you have presented to me are very easily explained once one knows the correct context. These really pose no problem at all to the eternal security view.

The “those that have done good” here are referring and describing the lives of those who have received new life by Jesus “by faith.” The good being described here are the resulting works that the believer performs as a result of being saved to begin with through faith alone. It’s the initial belief that is saving this person, not the good works. The “good” Jesus is describing here is the works as a result of the saving faith, but it’s the faith that God requires in order for a believer’s works to not be seen as filthy rags. He is not saying that his “doing good works” saved him and brought him into eternal life. He is describing the symptom of the saving faith. You are missing John 1:12 which says that the children of God are those who believe in Jesus’ name. You’re missing John 3:16 which says that those who believe on Jesus has eternal life. You’re missing John 3:36 which says that whoever believes in Jesus has eternal life. You’re missing John 5:24 which says that he who believes him who sent me has eternal life. Judgment in scripture is always on the basis of works. This does not mean that salvation is on the basis of works. This gospel makes it plain over and over again that men enter eternal life when they believe on Jesus Christ. But the lives they live form the test of the faith they profess.

So, Jesus is saying here in John 5:29 that the good are symptomatic of the already saving faith within the person. This is what he is talking about when he says “those who have done good unto the resurrection of life and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. The damned have nothing but there works to go with and no faith, which is what is damning them. This is the correct context of what Jesus is saying here.

Romans 2: 6-10 is another one taken out of context.

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds” (Romans 2:6-10).

The deeds being spoken of here are of the unsaved. When an unsaved person dies, he or she will be judged according to his deeds that he committed. They are still on his record and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ. This is not talking of a believer losing their salvation because he has a lack of good works or has lived sinfully. The next verse (verse 7) is speaking of the symptomatic characteristics of the already saving faith within the person, which has saved them, not the works or “well doing” itself. This verse is speaking of the same sort of thing that I just explained about John 5:29 …

“But unto them that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath” (Romans 2:8).

Question … what is this “truth” that the contentious are not obeying? Hint: It’s not works. Answer: “I am the way, the truth and the life” said Jesus. Jesus is the truth being spoken of here, and he made it clear that one can only receive eternal life through belief and nothing to do with works. The same “truth” that declared that he will lose no one, but raise them up on the last day. Those that obey “unrighteousness”, indignation and wrath. Question: Is the unrighteousness being spoken of here referring to bad works of a saved believer or anyone for that matter? Answer: No. The reason being is that it is the same concept that I described about John 5:29.

1 Corinthinans 6: 9-10 is very easily explained as well if you read it in the correct context. This again is not speaking of any kind of hint that if a believer commits said sins that he will lose his salvation …

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor the abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You left out the next verse (verse 11) which boldly declares …

“And such were some of you: but you are washed, (meaning the said sins have been removed from the spirit of the person going to Heaven by the blood of Christ) but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11).

This chapter starts out by rebuking believers for taking each other to court. Verse 1 of this chapter nails down the true meaning of what this scripture is getting at. “Dare any of you having a matter against another go to law before the unjust (the unsaved – the unrighteous being spoken of here that is the cause of your concern Stephen), and not before the saints?” Translation: why will you take your matters before the “unrighteous (the unsaved) and not the saints. Do you not know that the unsaved (unrighteous) will not inherit the Kingdom of God? It should be getting clearer to you now of what this is speaking of here, and quite obviously is not talking about a saved believer committing these sins and losing their salvation. It’s speaking of believers not taking their disputes to the unsaved because they are not going to inherit the kIngdom of God anyway. The word unrighteous here is not speaking of works of a believer, but the unsaved condition of the lost. Again, correct context is in order here.

Ephesians 5: 5-7 …“For this ye know that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and of God.”

This also is not speaking of the loss of salvation, but is speaking of the loss of inheritance and reward. At the judgment seat of Christ, a judgment that takes place for believers to determine their reward and position in the coming kingdom, we see works being burned as wood, hay and stubble and works coming forth as pure gold, precious stones etc. etc. This is clearly speaking of a believers judgment day, but not to determine whether or not they will be saved or lost. Bad living and deeds on the part of the believer will be dealt with at this judgment, but will result in lost reward, not salvation. Verse 6 declares the following …

“Let no man deceive you with vain words, for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience” (verse 6).

Question: Who is the “disobedient” here? Is it warning to not be disobedient towards right living? The answer is No, the children of disobedience is speaking of an unsaved unbeliever… meaning, they are disobedient to the covenant of faith in Christ, not disobedient to righteous works. This passage of scripture is warning saved believers to not be partakers with them because they (the unsaved) are not going to inherit anything in the Kingdom of Christ or God. Verse 8 and 9 nails it home …

“For you were sometimes darkness, but now you are light in the Lord: walk as children of light. For the “FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT” is in all goodness and righteousness and truth (verses 8-9).

As you can see here, this is talking about the “FRUIT” of the spirit being shown forth in the good works of the believer, not salvation. I’ll say that again, FRUIT, NOT SALVATION is the issue here, as verse 8 declares it. Not that the believer will lose their salvation as the aforementioned unrighteous (meaning the unsaved in this context of this scripture) will. They are not saved to begin with. This is telling believers that we are now light in the Lord and we should walk like it. But if we don’t, the issue of bearing no fruit will hit us at the Judgment Seat of Christ and rewards will be lost. Remember, the disobedient mentioned here will not inherit anything, but we are warned that we should not be partakers with them because we will lose our reward, not salvation. Again, context is important here.

Galatians 5 is pretty simple to explain as well. Just skip on down to verse 24 and you will read the following definitive words … “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the effections and lust” (verse 24).

This is stating that a saved believer has crucified the flesh nature to the cross of Christ in his or her “STANDING” with God JUDICIALLY. Not inheriting the Kingdom of God being spoken of here is not talking to a believer, but will be the result of an unbeliever who has not crucified the flesh through faith in the

blood of Christ. Back up to verse 18 and you discover that “If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the law.” The only way that one is not under the law is if he is under the new covenant of belief in Christ, apart from works (the law). But skip on down to the verse of your concern and you will discover that those under the works of the flesh are symptomatic of one that is under the law, which is what is being said here. If you are Christ’s, you have crucified JUDICIALLY the flesh in your right standing with God, not that the symptoms won’t be there as a believer. The difference here is saved vs. unsaved.

Philippians 3: 17-19 … The enemies of the cross of Christ in this verse is speaking of the unbeliever in his walk, not the believer in his or her walk, obedient or not. Verse 16 declares that we (believers) have already attained. This is not speaking of a disobedient Christian losing salvation. Verse 19 is speaking of the unbeliever, but if a Christian walks in disobedience like the unsaved in verse 18, this means that we lose our reward. Why and how can I say that? Answer: back up to verse 14 which says …

“I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (verse 14).

As you can see here, the issue of the “prize” (reward) is at stake here for the believer, not the loss of salvation.

Matthew 25 and the parable of the sheep and the goats are easily explainable by applying the explanation I gave with your John 5: 29 concern.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Stephen Russell
Here is part 2 to this message.
ETERNAL SECURITY: YOU CAN BE SURE (part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Mz2aLFyWc

And also an explanation of some of those other solemn warnings that seem to imply that one can lose their salvation, but when examined closer, reveal the opposite.

ETERNAL SECURITY 5: THOSE SOLEMN WARNINGS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htziutZVHLU

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+Stephen Russell
Your concern with my interpretation of John 6:39 is really no concern at all…

“And this is the Father’s will who sent me, that of all which he has given me, I should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).

Just substitute the word “should” with the word “shall” and the confusion and misinterpretation clears up. Our modern use and understanding of the word “should” is not how it is being used in the biblical text of John 6:39. Therefore, the text would read as follows …

“And this is the Father’s will who sent me, that of all which he has given me, I “shall” lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).

There is a place in the book of Daniel where this word “shall” is being used in the same way and context that it is being used in John 6:39. It is located in Daniel 12:2 and many other places …

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth {shall} awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

The word “should” in John 6:39 is synonomous with how it is being said in Daniel 12:2. In Numbers 23:10 we read of the mention of this event in John 6:39…

“Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his” (Daniel 12:2).

This scripture is making mention of that same event found in John 6:39. This being the case, the word rendered “should” in John 6:39 is conveying the word “shall”, a definite event that holds no possibility of a declared event going the other way based on any conditional circumstances or actions of said person who will be a part of this resurrection supposedly not living up to a certain condition. Further, if the context of John 6:39 is as you say it is, then that means that we would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus failed in performing his Father’s will. This is an impossibility given that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh and walked among us.

eberle jr. MichelPraise the LORD. tell you what if i wasn’t an once saved always saved easy believeism free grace Christian believer before, i would be one now after your clear-cut presentation of the gospel of the grace of God. praise the LORD Jesus. once saved always saved. God bless. Agape love

Kelly Cole
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2nd Timothy 3:16 NIV. Therefore, every the Bible is comprised of the inspired thoughts of GOD. No author of a book of the Bible ever expressed his personal opinions, he stated the Words of God. Scripture tells us ““The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and

witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5: 19-21 NIV emphasis added. Pertaining to the Kingdom of Heaven, Scripture tells us that “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Revelation 21:27 NIV. Clearly, the false manmade salvation doctrine known as “once saved, always saved”, wherein a person may rape, rob, murder, and steal after accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, is not the gospel. Anyone who follows that doctrine and commits the above acts without repenting of them will NOT enter Heaven.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Kelly Cole
Galatians 5 is pretty simple to explain. Just skip on down to verse 24 and you will read the following definitive words …

“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the effections and lust” (Galatians 5:24).

This is stating that a saved believer has crucified the flesh nature to the cross of Christ in his or her “STANDING” with God JUDICIALLY. Not inheriting the Kingdom of God being spoken of here is not talking to a believer, but will be the result of an unbeliever who has not crucified the flesh through faith in the blood of Christ. Back up to verse 18 and you discover that “If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT under the law.” The only way that one is not under the law is if he is under the new covenant of belief in Christ, apart from works (the law). But skip on down to the verse of your concern and you will discover that those under the works of the flesh are symptomatic of one that is under the law, which is what is being said here. If you are Christ’s, you have crucified JUDICIALLY the flesh in your right standing with God, not that the symptoms won’t be there as a believer. The difference here is saved vs. unsaved.

The bottom line, this is not a scripture talking about the idea that a saved, born again believer can lose their salvation. If so, it would contradict many other scriptures such as John 6:39 wherein Christ said that he will lose no one but raise it up at the last day. It would also contradict Romans 11:29 which emphatically states that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, meaning that God does not and will not take it away from you. Eternal life in Romans 6:23 is referred to as a gift.

Your concern with Revelation 21:27 is really no concern at all for the eternal security view. What is being said here in this verse of scripture is the same thing being said in your previous verse of concern in Galatians 5: 19-21 …

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life” Revelation 21:27).

The key to this verse is it’s declaration that if your name is written in the Lamb’s book of Life, the aforementioned sins/abominations are not on your record because they have been washed clean by the blood of Christ as a result of your name being written in the Lamb’s book of life. Re-read the text carefully and you discover that these sins are on your record only if your name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life, which is what is being said and implied here. If it is written in the Lamb’s book of life, the aforementioned sins/abominations do not apply to you. This scripture is letting us know that these sins are still on the unbeliever’s record and will not enter into Heaven (the holy city New Jerusalem) because his name is not in this book … therefore the sins are still imputed to the said person’s spirit. If a saved believer commits such sins, they are committed in the flesh, not the spirit …

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 3.
One must always remember that scripture cannot contradict itself, if it does, then it’s not really the word of God and we cannot trust it.

Steven Flamenco
So Judas was never a true believer???

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
+Steven Flamenco
Judas was never a true Christian, therefore, he never lost his salvation. But, some believe since he was a disciple and chosen by Jesus, then he had to have been a true believer. However, we find that is not the case. Let’s take a look at what Jesus said …

“But there are some of you who do not believe, For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:64-65).

We can see from the words of Christ that he knew who it was who would betray him, and he associates him with those who did not believe from the beginning. This means that Judas never was a true believer in Christ. Of course, we know that he believed Jesus lived since he walked and talked with him. Judas did not believe that Jesus was who he said he was, God in flesh (John 8:24, 58; 10:30-33). He did not affirm the true Messiah-hood of Christ.  Furthermore, we can learn from two things Jesus said that it is not possible to lose one’s salvation.  John 8:29 …

“And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I ALWAYS DO THE THINGS THAT ARE PLEASING TO HIM” (John 8:29).

“And THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME, THAT OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39).

We can clearly see that Jesus always does the will of the Father (John 8:29). Jesus also said, in John 8:39, that he always does the will of the Father, which is that Jesus lose none, and those who are given to Jesus will be raised (to glory). So, it cannot be that anyone loses his salvation because that would mean Jesus lost someone.  Those who are truly saved cannot lose their salvation. We can conclude that Judas was never saved from what Jesus said in John 6:64-65, as well as other verses about our security in him.

approvedofGod
This is a very nice man teaching an old lie. He has been teaching this false doctrine for many years. Everlasting life is both present and future. 1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. Stanley wrongly assumes that one can live in sin and still be accepted in heaven.

WELL, WELL, WHO DO WE HAVE HERE!!!!  APPROVED OF GOD YOU SAY!!!!  WE’LL SEE ABOUT THAT PRIVATE!!!!  NOW THROW DOWN!!!  I SAID THROW DOWN … NOW PRIVATE!!!!! …

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > approvedofGod
I’m curious about which scriptures you can point to that would say that one could possibly lose their salvation.

approvedofGod
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING There are many. Watch my video, “The Lunacy of Once Saved Always Saved.” This should answer your question.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
approvedofGod
I’ve watched your video and I have to say that the information presented is very misinterpreted. Those scriptures you use to say that one can lose their salvation are largely taken out of context. If your interpretation of them is true, you have a major problem with what Jesus said in John 6:39 which reads as follows …

“And this is the Father’s will who sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).

Sound contradictory to you? It should because it is. Jesus clearly says that he will lose no one, but raise it up again at the last day. Always remember that scripture cannot contradict itself. If your view of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is true, then we have a major contradiction in the bible. If we have a contradiction, then the bible cannot be trusted. Of course, the bible does not contradict itself, so that means that your interpretation of what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is is incorrect. As far as Matthew 15:8 is concerned, this scripture is not talking about a saved believer. Jesus was clearly talking to the Pharisees about them being hippocrite teachers of the law. The verses before verse 8 clearly define that. If the views presented in your video are correct, not only does it contradict what Jesus said in John 6:39, but also contradicts Romans 11:29 which says the following…

“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Here in Romans 6:23, you can see that eternal life is declared a “gift” from God. So what does God think about gifts? Answer: “For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29). That means that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable … meaning that God is not going to take it away from you.

Remember, if salvation can be lost, we have many major contradictions in the bible. It cannot be. Read our conversation below.

approvedofGod
+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING The only contradiction I see is your interpretation. The points I bring out in my video are clear. Jesus said “anyone.” So you believe you cannot be misled (apostasy)? Do you believe that Christians can behave as “hypocrites” and not be judged as hypocrites? Do you believe like John MacArthur that one can take the “Mark of the Beast” and still be saved? John 6:39 is not contradictory to me or to the gospel. It is not God’s will that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING (edited)
approvedofGod
First off, the apostasy spoken of that characterizes the end times is often based off the “falling away” of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. This is not speaking of a falling away of saved believers or Christians. This is referring to the rapture itself. It is not a falling away from the faith being spoken of here in this particular scripture.

IS THE “FALLING AWAY” THE RAPTURE?
https://narrowwayapologetics.com/2013/09/10/is-the-falling-away-the-rapture/

THE RAPTURE REVELATION AND THE “FALLING AWAY” (part 4 of 4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVVCU-ZOuK8

The hypocrites being spoken of here are not referring to saved believers. This is speaking of an unsaved person. Jesus was talking to Torah minded, law keeping Jews that were being hippocrites. Nothing at all to do with a born again believer. Would you agree that scripture, if it’s truly the word of God, cannot contradict itself? If so, how does your interpretation square with John 6:39? Or Romans 11:29? Or 1 John 3 which states that

one cannot sin in the spirit if saved because the seed of the Holy Spirit resides there …

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).

This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 3.

I fail to see how my interpretation of scripture is somehow wrong according to you. John 6:39 and the others are quite straightforward with no room for misinterpretation. Jesus clearly says he will lose no one. There is no room for misinterpretation here. The scriptures you are using to justify your position are easily explainable when read in the proper context.

GeorgeJansen
So if someone that is saved, falls away (ie looses their salvation/fallen away), can they get it back or is it gone forever?

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
GeorgeJansen
Someone who is saved cannot fall away and lose their salvation to begin with. So, the question of whether or not said person can gain salvation back becomes a moot question in reality. There are a number of scriptures that people often point out in order to make the case that a born again/saved believer can lose their salvation. However, when one looks a bit closer at the intended context these scriptures are being used in, they actually prove the exact opposite. I had a lengthy conversation with “Stephen Russell” and “Approved of God” not too further down below in the comment section concerning those scriptures and revealed, with clarity, their true context. I would encourage you to read the discussion if interested.

The Bible Says
No one will lose his salvation? On the contrary, the Bible provides many warnings to believers:

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6).

Jesus DID NOT say “once a branch, always a branch.” If – as branches – we fail to abide in Him, we’re headed for destruction.
If we, after justification, fail to abide in Him for our ongoing sanctification, we’re lost, by our own choice or neglect. Only our own choice or neglect can separate us from Him.

Yes, even after receiving the holy spirit it is possible to “fall away”:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:4-6).

And we have this witness from the Apostle Peter:

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22).

*******************

Why are so many confused? They don’t realize there’s a difference between justification and salvation, and assume they’re “saved” – “done deal” – when in fact they have been justified. And they don’t realize they must now abide in Him, continuing in sanctification. And they don’t realize they will not be saved – saved from ever perishing in death – until they actually receive immortality, the gift of eternal life, at Jesus’ return.

In this mortal life those who have been justified and entered sanctification have “the hope of salvation” as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:8,9:

“But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Did Paul tell them they were already saved? No. But what do most churches tell you today? That you’re already saved, and you’ve got it made. Comfort zones SELL.

If you’ve repented and turned to God, you are “now justified by His blood” as Paul wrote to the Romans, and “SHALL BE” saved through Him. Here’s Romans 5:9:

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

“Through Him” meaning through sanctification, only possible by abiding in Him.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+The Bible Says
To “abide” is to live, continue, or remain; so, to abide in Christ is to live in Him or remain in Him. When a person is saved, he or she is described as being “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17), held secure in a permanent relationship (John 10:28–29). Therefore, abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience, available only to a few; rather, it is the position of all true believers. The difference between those abiding in Christ and those not abiding in Christ is the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

Abiding in Christ is taught in 1 John 2:5–6, where it is synonymous with “knowing” Christ (verses 2 and 3). Later in the same chapter, John equates “remaining” in the Father and the Son with having the promise of eternal life (verses 24 and 25). Biblically, “abiding in,” “remaining in,” and “knowing” Christ are references to the same thing: salvation.

The phrase abiding in Christ pictures an intimate, close relationship, and not just a superficial acquaintance. In John 15:4–7, Jesus tells His disciples that drawing life from Him is essential, using the picture of branches united to a vine …

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you” (John 15:4-7).

Without that vital union with Christ that salvation provides, there can be no life and no productivity. Elsewhere, the Bible likens our relationship with Christ to that of a body with a head (Colossians 1:18)—another essential union.

Some people take the warning of John 15:6 (branches that do not abide in the vine are thrown away and burned) to mean that Christians are always in danger of losing their salvation. In other words, they say it’s possible to be saved but not “abide,” in which case we would be cast away. But this could only be true if “abiding” were separate from salvation, referring to a state of intimacy with Christ we must strive to attain post-salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation comes by grace and is maintained by grace (Galatians 3:2–3). Also, if a branch could somehow fall away from the vine, resulting in the loss of salvation, then other, very clear passages of Scripture would be contradicted (see John 10:27–30).

It is best to interpret the True Vine metaphor this way: Jesus is the True Vine, obviously. The branches who “abide” in Him are the truly saved—they have a real and vital connection to the Savior. The withered branches who do not “abide” in Him are the unsaved pretenders who feigned an attachment to the Vine but drew no life from Him. In the end, the pretenders will be seen for what they were: hangers-on who had no authentic attachment to Jesus. For a while, both Peter and Judas seemed identical in their walk with Christ. But Peter was attached to the Vine; Judas was not.

John restates the withered-branch principle this way …

“They [people now opposed to Christ] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19).

So, the bottom line is that the statement that Christ made of abiding in him is not speaking of the possibility of losing one’s salvation. Notice that verse 4 is speaking of the issue of bearing fruit, not the losing of one’s salvation if one doesn’t abide in him …

“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing” (verse 4).

Again, the issue is bearing fruit, not salvation. Verse 4 really nails it home. Further, the first thing he says and makes clear is that we are “clean through the word spoken unto you.” This is emphasizing that one will not remain clean through works. To remain or abide in Christ means that we are POSITIONALLY already abiding in him by simply being saved. This is what is being stated here.

As for your concern with Hebrews 6:4-6 goes, that one is very simple to explain as well. If this means what you and many others think it means, then the bible has contradicted itself, therefore, it cannot be the true interpretation and conclusion of a believer losing salvation. Indeed, upon close examination of this scripture, we find out that it is not talking about the loss of salvation of a believer at all …

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:4-6).

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.  According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance of their unbelief and fully embrace faith in Christ; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.  The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.  Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal. John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), John 6:36, Romans 11:29 and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.

The Bible Says+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
Your line of reasoning denies Hebrews 6:4-6, which plainly shows that even after receiving the holy spirit it is still possible to fall away:

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:4-6).

You are also denying Peter’s warning that even after escaping the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ it is possible to return to a life of sin, and be in a worse condition than they were to begin with:

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy

commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Yes, it is the Father’s will that none be lost. But men have been denying God’s will since the beginning.

We have free will and can choose to no longer abide in Him, even though He will seek to bring us back. We are responsible to abide in Him and repent and overcome as He leads us. If we choose to walk away, to no longer abide in Him, here’s what happens:

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6).

The perception that we have been saved when we’re abiding in Him is incorrect. If we’re abiding in Him we have been justified and are in sanctification. Salvation comes later, when you actually receive eternal life at the resurrection at Jesus’ return. Note how Paul separated justification from salvation: they are two different things, happening at different times:

“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Romans 5:9)

In my original comment I quoted several other verses showing we shall be saved, in the future. That’s what Paul and Peter taught. But what churches are teaching today – that you’re already saved and can never loose your salvation – is something quite different.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+The Bible Says
I’ve already addressed, and is conclusively proven, the true meaning and message of Hebrews 6:4-6 above, so there will be no need to address it twice. As for abiding in Christ, I’ve already expounded upon it and it’s safe to say that the statement made by Christ is 100 percent conclusive.

Concerning your reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22, I would appeal for you to first notice that there is a change in referrent. Verses 17 and preceding refer to coming false teachers. However, verses 18 through 22 refer to people who are duped by the false teachers. Verses 18 and 20 indicate that the people being drawn into sin by the false teachers are those “who have actually escaped from those who live in error” and who “have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” Only believers fit that description. [N.B. The word “knowledge” in v 20 is the same term which is used in 1:2,3,5,6. It is a term used in 2 Peter exclusively of believers. See also 1:1,9 and 3:1,8,14,17-18 for further proof that 2 Peter is addressed to believers.]

Second, it is evident in all three chapters of 2 Peter that Peter is concerned that his readers – believers – might fall into a sinful lifestyle as a result of the wiles of the false teachers whom he knows via prophecy are coming soon. Peter urges his believing readers to be diligent so as to keep from stumbling and falling (1:5,10; 2:18-22; 3:14,17). We err if we read into 2 Peter the idea that anyone who fell away would prove to be a false professor. Peter never questions the faith of his readers. Rather, he acknowledges it (e.g. 1:1). What he questions is the progress of their sanctification, not their salvation.

Third, the real question is this: What does Peter warn his readers will happen if they fall? Most commentators suggest that eternal judgment – hell – is in view. They point to verses 21 and 22 However, a careful reading of those verses suggest that temporal judgment, not hell, is in view. Notice what isn’t said. Peter makes no reference to hell, the lake of fire, unending suffering, or any similar term or phrase. He instead says that it would be better for a believer never to know the way of righteousness than to have known it and then turn away in a licentious lifestyle.

It is a grievous mistake to understand those words to mean hell. If they do, Peter is teaching that believers can lose their salvation – something he did not believe (cf. Luke 10:20; John 13:10; Acts 10:43-48; 11:16-18; 15:7-11; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 2 Peter 1:9; 3:8-13). Rather, Peter is simply saying that if a believer grovels in a life of sin, his life here and now will be worse than if he had never become a Christian. While both non-Christians and Christians experience the terrible consequences of their sins here and now, those consequences are even worse for believers because we are God’s children with the Holy Spirit living within us. Certainly conviction of sin is greater. So, too, new consequences for our sins come on the scene (e.g., rebuke by a Christian friend, church discipline). And, the more a believer resists God’s discipline, the more He turns up the heat. That is not necessarily true for a non-Christian.

The reference to dogs and pigs in verse 22 is often cited as proof that false professors are in view. In reality, the references show that believers are in view. Notice that the dog and pig are said to have been free from their filth. Only believers are free of their sins. Surely the reader of 2 Peter would harken back to 1:9 where Peter refers to his readers as being purged from their old sins. Peter was not referring to forgiveness there. All our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven in Christ. He was referring to our new natures. Believers have a nature which is free from the sins which used to enslave us. Whenever a believer walks in the darkness he has forgotten who he is (2 Peter 1:9) and has allowed the flesh to rear its ugly head.

The word “better” in 2 Peter 2:21 is crucial. When explaining this passage ask your audience, “better WHEN?” The text, properly understood, only allows one answer: better in this life. The false teachers promised their potential dupes liberty (2:19). They actually delivered bondage and temporal judgment. May we all take heed. Sin pays lousy dividends.

You stated that salvation comes later when we are resurrected. Nothing could be further from the truth. While it is true that we will escape the wrath of the Tribulation period to come, thus be saved from wrath physically at a future point in time, salvation of the soul occurs the very instant that we believe on Christ and receive him as our personal savior. A proof text is found in 1 John 3:2 …

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

Notice that we are “now” the sons of God, not later. In the natural, a son is a genetic son as soon as he is born of his parents and never stops being a son of those parents. He doesn’t eventually become their genetic son through a process of sanctification. He already is from birth on throughout life. As it is in the natural, so it is with the spirit. This would present a problem with your interpretation of Romans 5:9.

I say it often and will say it again because it does indeed bear repeating – biblical scripture does not and cannot contradict itself if it really and truly is the word of God. If your views of 2 Peter 2:20-22, John 15 and Romans 5:9 are correct, then we have major contradictions throughout the bible. Jesus clearly said that he will lose no one in John 6:39. Romans 11:29 declares that the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable. I could go on, but I’m sure the point is taken.

The Bible Says+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
You wrote “Jesus clearly said that he will lose no one in John 6:39.”

That’s a completely deceptive statement. Here is John 6:39:

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

It is the Father’s will or desire or intention that no one be lost. Jesus did NOT say that no one would be lost . . . those were your words, not Jesus’ words!

—————

Your statement “All our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven in Christ” is FALSE. NONE of our sins are forgiven until we CONFESS AND REPENT OF THEM!

Here’s how it works:

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

Isn’t it obvious that our sins are not “forgiven, past, present and future”? Our sins remain until we confess and repent of them!

Who gets mercy? Who gets forgiven and redeemed? Those who confess and turn from sin:

“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13)

We are instructed to forgive those who trespass against us IF they repent of those

trespasses. In like manner God will forgive our trespasses against Him IF we’ll repent of those trespasses:

“Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him” (Luke 17:3,4).

Your assertion, “All our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven in Christ” – no repentance required – is gross error and dangerous deception. Remember Jesus’ words in Luke 13:3 and 5:

” . . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”

—————

So you think you’re already saved? What would you have said to the apostle Paul who wrote that we have the hope of salvation and have yet to obtain salvation?

“But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess 5:8,9).

And what would you have said to Peter when he stated that we shall be saved?

“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”

Did Peter tell them they were already saved? No. Neither did Paul! As I stated in an earlier comment we won’t be saved – saved from ever perishing in death – until we actually receive the gift of eternal life at our resurrection at Jesus’ return.

Peter and Paul wrote that we must “give diligence to make your calling and election sure” and that we must each “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (2 Peter 1:10 and Philippians 2:12). Compare that to the “easy grace” people who tell you you’re already saved and insist you’ll never lose your salvation. Where is the “strait gate” and “narrow way, that leads to life” in “easy grace”?

Peter stated in 1 Peter 1:13 that we wait and hope for the grace that is to be brought to us at the revelation – the return – of Christ:

“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ”

————

Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks clearly to me that we CAN fall away even after we “were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.”

2 Peter 2:20-22 is pretty plain and needs no “explanation.” Even after “escaping the

pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” we can become re-entangled in sin and find ourselves in a worse situation than we were before we knew Christ!

Tell me now, sir, would we still be “saved” anyway?

There is certainly no question about whether they really had been believers: they had received the holy spirit and had “escaped the pollutions of the world” through knowing Jesus. The idea usually presented – that they weren’t really believers or “saved” and therefore “fell away” – is circular reasoning and denies that true believers can return to sin and fall away. That kind of reasoning is no more valid than saying a fire, if it has been extinguished, must not have been a fire in the first place.

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+The Bible Says
With all due respect, your understanding of what exactly was accomplished in the life of Jesus and at the cross is lacking. Your claim that those were my words and not Jesus’ own words is quite a bizarre observation given the clarity of what is being said in John 6. In John 6:38-40, Jesus stated that he came to do the will of him who sent him, which means the Father. Question … was Jesus successful at accomplishing the Father’s will? Answer: Yes, of course he was. If the Father’s will is that Jesus loses no one that the Father gives to him, thus comes to him, then that means that if we are “in Christ,” we are eternally secure. Salvation cannot be lost. If so, one would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was unsuccessful in accomplishing the Father’s will. You are essentially saying that Jesus failed in accomplishing his Father’s will! He then goes on to clearly state that he who comes to him (comes to Jesus) he will not lose! Where is the confusion at here? It’s plain and simple to see what is being said here. All that come to him he will lose no one, but raise it up at the last day. The only ones that will be lost are those who fail to come to Jesus in faith and belief to begin with i.e. the unsaved person who rejects Christ. So, o.k. then, you are saying that Jesus failed in accomplishing the Father’s will. Alrighty then.

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:39-40).

On to your next point of contention. I’ve noticed you stated that “none of our sins are forgiven until we confess and repent of them. They remain until we confess and repent of them. This is incorrect. You cite 1 John 1:9 which states the following …

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

This is a statement that John writes to those who are already Christians, but it does not have anything to do with our relationship to God through Christ regarding salvation. It regards fellowship. There is the difference. We as Christians have to confess our sins to keep our fellowship with God in right standing, not our relationship of salvation and eternal security. 1 John 1:9 is not stating that we must do this to keep from being eternally damned. We must do this to keep our fellowship in right standing. You’re using this scripture completely out of it’s correct context.

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2).

Notice the beginning address as “MY little children.” In Greek, the term “little children” is “teknia,” which means “born ones.” We as Christians have been “born again” or born into the family of God. The world of the unsaved is seen as being “without.” The sin of a believer is treated as a child’s offense against his father and is dealt with as a family matter. The child’s offense or sin against the law has been dealt with and met on the cross JUDICIALLY. JUDICIALLY, we are in the family of God still. Sin of a believer is dealt with as a family matter, which means you still are a child of his, but will endure chastisement from God, not be kicked out of the family and be lost. This is what 1 John 2:1-2 is speaking about when it proclaims that we have an advocate with the father through Jesus Christ. John’s gospel leaps across the threshold of family relationship, but his 1 epistle makes us feel at home, or in the family. In other words, it’s a family matter. This is where you are missing it in your citing of 1 John 1:9. He will forgive us if we confess, but we’re confessing as already his children that are wayward, not as someone outside of the family. You have the incorrect context of that scripture.

Your citing of Luke 13:3-5 is also out of context …

“There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3-5).

In this portion of scripture, Jesus was saying that it does not matter of the outward “extremeness” of one group of sins over another group of people’s sins. Those who are in unbelief are lost period. If a person over here is moral and lives right, while another one over there is not a moral person and does not live right, it doesn’t matter, They both are lost and on their way to eternal damnation. This is a matter of JUDICIAL salvation, not about if a believer sins that they will lose their salvation if unrepented of. The sin of unbelief of who Christ is is the only thing that will damn a person. Was Jesus telling (the Galilaeans) that because they were less sinners than those other ones that they were more righteous and would not perish. Answer: no. They lesser sinners of these Galilaens were also eternally damned unless they repented. This is not speaking of the ceasing of outward acts of sin on the part of these Galilaens so that they would not perish. Jesus was making the point that all are condemned without the required condition of accepting Christ as the ultimate sacrifice. The Galilaens that Christ was speaking to in Luke 13 were of the synagogue and under the law. They were not believers. Christ is speaking about repentance of unbelief for the forgiveness of those sins. This scripture is being taken out of context on your part.

2 Peter 1:10 is rather simple to explain if you read it in it’s correct context. It is speaking of the fact that you won’t fall in your “ASSURANCE”of your calling and election. It is not saying that they will fall from the grace of salvation, but their “ASSURANCE” …

“For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:8).

Notice, it says that if you do these things, you will not be barren nor UNFRUITFUL in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ. Where in the name of all that’s holy do you get the idea that this is somehow talking about the loss of salvation? Honestly, you need to read the verses that precede the ones you cited to get a more accurate picture and account of what is being said here, not just cherry pick scripture here and there. You are not taking things in the correct context because you are cherry picking. Cherry picking will not give you a full understanding of the intended context.

You also cite 1 Peter 1:13. A weak case indeed for the argument of conditional salvation as to be puzzling. It is not saying that we better “hope to God we make it,” it’s merely saying that we should be sober minded because of the grace that is coming to us. Eventually, the judgment of reward will happen for the believer in Heaven, which occurs after the rapture. There is nothing there in 1 Peter 1:13 that says or hints at losing our salvation.

Your concern with Philippians 2:12 is also taken out of context on your part. In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes …

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose” (Philippians 2:12).

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated “fear” in this context can equally mean “reverence” or “respect.” Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold:

First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition.” We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, NOT SALVATION OR THE KEEPING OF SALVATION, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. “Trembling” can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe. This scripture is not talking about our having to work to keep our salvation. Another very misinterpreted portion of scripture on the part of many Christians.

As far as your continual citing of Hebrew 6, I’ve already explained that, so I’ll not repeat except to say that they were not made partakers in the sense that they were saved. The Holy Ghost is what brings people to the knowledge of salvation to begin with, but if after they hear it, they fall away from the doctrine they heard that the Holy Ghost brought to them and reject Christ, there remains no more sacrifice for sin if Christ is rejected. Therefore, this is not saying that the partaker is a partaker in the sense that they got saved. Another one taken out of context on your part. You can’t cherry pick scripture without understanding the full context.

As far as your statement “we can become re-entangled in sin and find ourselves in a worse situation than we were before we knew Christ! Tell me now, sir, would we still be “saved” anyway?” is concerned, it is not talking about a worse condition in the sense of being damned as a Christian. I already explained that above. It is speaking of our earthly condition and otherwise if we were to reject Christ after hearing the message of salvation and then rejecting it to begin with when one is not saved to begin with. Nothing there about the loss of salvation, or the worse condition, of a believer who fails to “live up to the standard.” A christian who fails to live up to the standard can and does get dealt with through God’s chastisement as a member of the family, not as an outsider as I already stated above.

It is quite clear at this point that the doctrine of “once saved always saved” is quite biblical and needs to be understood. As I’ve demonstrated abundantly, one has to cherry pick scripture and read out of context and perform some scripture gymnastics and jujitsu to come to the conclusion that salvation can be lost. One would do well to heed the admonition of Isaiah 28:10 …

“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” (Isaiah 28:10) to get an accurate picture of what scripture is telling us.

THERE’S MORE OF THEM THAN WHAT WE THOUGHT!!!!  YOU TAKE THE RIGHT FLANK, I’LL TAKE THE LEFT AND MIDDLE!!!  GOT IT!!!!!  

bornagain chad
you have to have Jesus Christ. .who gives you power over all sin…and brings you to repent and turn from your sinful life..then you will be saved…

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+bornagainchad
That’s not how one gets saved from this place. Salvation is not dependent upon whether or not we are successful at turning from our sinful life. It’s recognizing that we are hopelessly unable to save ourselves because of the fallen nature that we all have given to us from the birth of Adam. If you turn to Christ for forgiveness and receive him personally as your savior, there is no more that we can possibly add to that. Turning from your sinful life is what God desires of course. We will still suffer the consequences in many instances both in this life and in the life to come in Heaven at the judgment seat of Christ where rewards will be won or lost. But the issue of our salvation and going to Heaven is not at stake at this judgment. Once we receive Christ, the bible does not warn us to “turn from our sinful life” or else face eternal damnation. It is true that we should not indulge in deliberately sinful behavior for the reason I just mentioned of course, but the issue of salvation is not in question if one doesn’t. That is not the gospel message that Christ and the Apostles have presented in the biblical text. The message that Jesus presented is that one must be “born again” to enter Heaven.

bornagain chad+END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
ok what’s born again?

END TIMES:  DARKNESS DESCENDING > bornagain chad … When one is born into the world, he or she is born with a fallen, sinful nature. The sins that we human beings commit is only a symptom of the much bigger problem. Our spirits, the part of us that will live on in eternity, is in a state of death. In order for us to escape eternal damnation, our spirits must be brought back to life through regeneration. This is what being born again means. It means that when one receives Christ as his or her savior by trusting on him and personally receiving him as his or her savior, the spirit of God literally and instantly inhabits the body of said person and instantly regenerates the person’s spirit from it’s state of death back to life. Romans 6:11 puts it this way…

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:11).

This verse of scripture is basically confirming and reinforcing what Christ said about having to be “born again.”

Gaming_Modifications
CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE COME TO MY HOUSE AND HELP ME

tamitha20
great answer!!! very intelligent, well said reply..
great answer. it makes me understand more.. thank u!

END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING
+tamitha20
You’re certainly welcome.

Part 2 of this 4-part eternal security series can be read in the link below.
ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 2: CHERRY PICKER’S DOUBLE LAYER DELIGHT SPECIAL – THE SLAUGHTER CONTINUES

Recommended Reading:
THE SCARIEST VERSES IN THE BIBLE