This article is a continuation of the previous three articles in this eternal security debate series (see links below).
ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 1: CAN A PERSON LOSE THEIR SALVATION ONCE SAVED?
ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 2: CHERRY PICKER’S DOUBLE LAYER DELIGHT SPECIAL – THE SLAUGHTER CONTINUES
ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 3: CHERRY PICKER’S SOUFFLE TRIPLE LAYER SPECIAL – THE BEAST IS SLAYED
If you have been following this series, I have been going through various comments that people have left on a certain series of videos that I had posted on my youtube channel regarding the controversy over whether or not it’s possible that one can lose their salvation for any reason once it has been truly received and possessed. As I’ve pointed out in the previous articles in this series, the scriptures that many point to that, in their mind, make the case that it can be lost, are often cherry-picked and taken out of their intended context in a gluttonous gorge of misinterpretation – a gorge so massive that it’s surprising that many people aren’t admitted to the hospital for their ingorgement of cherry picking. Some could even make a nice thick, beastly, monstrous, gargantuan, gaseous cherry cake.
If you have been following, you well know by now that it is my conclusion that, based on the observable evidence, that salvation cannot be lost if truly possessed. After figuring that I’ve surely dealt with all of the major portions of scripture that people present when arguing this topic so heatedly as to not need to publish a fourth article on this subject, more started appearing in people’s comments that made me have an “oh yeah, I forgot that one!” moment. So, after sending the remains of the dead carcass of the butchered beast called the conditional eternal security monster off to the graveyard, I will now show you, the reader, a snapshot picture of the clean-up job of the slayed beast. But first, let’s take a snapshot look at the dangerous position that one who has not received Christ finds themselves in.
“Every human being,” says C.S. Lewis, “is in the process of becoming a noble being; noble beyond imagination. Or else, alas, a vile being beyond redemption.” He exhorts us to remember that “the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. … There are no ordinary people. … It is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.”
Those who find themselves in Heaven will be surrounded with friends whom they have known on earth. Friendships, once rudely interrupted by death, will continue where they left off. Every description of heaven they have ever heard will pale in the light of reality. All this, forever.
Others—indeed many others—will be shrouded in darkness, a region of deprivation and unending regret. There, with their memories and feelings fully intact, images of their life on earth will return to haunt them. They will think back to their friends, family and relatives; they will brood over opportunities they squandered and intuitively know that their future is both hopeless and unending. For them, death will be far worse than they imagined.
And so while relatives and friends plan your funeral—deciding on a casket, a burial plot and who the pallbearers shall be—you will be more alive than you have ever been. You will either see God on His throne surrounded by angels and redeemed humanity, or you will feel an indescribable weight of guilt and abandonment. There is no destination midway between these two extremes; just gladness or gloom.
Nor will it be possible to transfer from one region to another. No matter how endless the ages, no matter how heartfelt the cries, no matter how intense the suffering, your travel plans are limited to your present abode. Those who find themselves in the lower gloomy regions shall never enter the gates that lead to endless light and ecstasy. They will discover that the beautiful words spoken in their eulogy bear no resemblance to the reality that now confronts them. If only their friends could see them now!
Reportedly, there is a cemetery in the state of Indiana that has an old tombstone bearing this thought provoking epitaph:
Pause, stranger, when you pass me by
As you are now, so once was I
As I am now, so you will be
So prepare for death and follow me
An unknown passerby read those words and underneath scratched this reply:
To follow you I’m not content
Until I know which way you went
Unless Christ should return in our lifetime, we all shall pass through that iron gate described by Hamlet as “the undiscovered country from whose born/No traveller returns.”
Thinking about our final destination gives us perspective. Visualize a measuring tape extending from earth to the farthest star. Our stay here is but a hairline, almost invisible to the length of the tape. Strictly speaking, no distance can be compared to eternity. No matter how endless we visualize eternity to be, our conception is never endless enough.
Every one of us wants to make wise investments, to get the “biggest bang for our buck,” as the saying goes. The best investments are those that are safe and permanent; if we are wise, we will spend our time preparing for that which lasts forever. What is life but preparation for eternity?
I remember reading a horrifying and tragic story about people enjoying themselves on the top stories of a tall apartment building not knowing that there was a fire burning on the lower floors. Just so, many are enjoying life, comfortably ignoring the fact that their death is not only inevitable, but much nearer than they think. Though there are many uncertainties in our lives, we can count on this: Whatever we strive for in this world must of necessity be temporary. Indeed, this world and all we have accumulated will be burned up eventually.
One should not make the horrible and tragic mistake of thinking that they will get to Heaven without the right credentials. You will not be there because your family member has a right to enter; you will not be there because you have a child who is already there. No, this is an individual matter. No one can enter into Heaven without God’s specific approval. Our problem, of course, is that God will not accept us as we are. We cannot come to heaven’s gates hoping for leniency. We cannot come pleading for special favors once we have slipped through the parted curtain. “Visas” are not available on the other side of the border.
So what are God’s requirements? How perfect do you have to be to enter into Heaven? Quite simply: as perfect as God. In fact, if you are not as perfect as He is, don’t even think that you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven! Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant, have always taught that we must be as perfect as God to enter through those pearly gates. The question, of course, is “How can we as sinners be as perfect as God?” The answer, of course, is that we cannot. But God is able to make us righteous; His righteousness can be credited to our account so that we can enter into Heaven immediately at death without so much as an intermediate stop.
When Christ died on the cross, He made a sacrifice for sinners, which God accepted. Though Christ was perfect, God made Him legally guilty of all of our sins. In turn, we receive His righteousness …
“He made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
This means that Christ was regarded as a sinner when He bore our sin; we are regarded as saints when we receive His righteousness. Though very imperfect, we are regarded as “the righteousness of God.” God has exceedingly high standards, but thankfully, He meets them for us!
Scripturally speaking, it is not at all true that anyone has committed sins so great that they cannot be forgiven. The amount or extremeness of our sin is not a barrier; it is our unbelief that cuts us off from God’s mercy and pardon. When we receive Christ’s righteousness, another miracle happens to us at the same time. God gives us a new nature; He changes us from the inside out. Christ said to Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader …
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).
Obviously, we cannot cause ourselves to be born again. That is something that God must do for us. What must we do to receive the gift of righteousness and a new nature within? The answer is to admit our helplessness, to acknowledge that we are dependent on God’s mercy and ask Him to forgive our sin. Then we must transfer all of our trust to Christ as our sin-bearer; we must believe in Him as the One who did all that we will ever need to stand in God’s holy presence. To believe in Christ means that, as best we know, we trust Him for our salvation.
How sure can we be that we will spend eternity with God? We can be so sure that death need not terrify us. Yes, there is mystery; yes, we all are apprehensive of taking leave of this body to wake up in the world to come. But when we have trusted Christ, we know that He walks with us through the parted curtain.
What is Christ’s attitude toward our homecoming? Repeatedly in the New Testament, Christ is spoken of as sitting “at the right hand of God.” But there is one reference to His leaving His seat and standing; He is welcoming His servants home. As Stephen was being stoned, we read that “being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into Heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God” (Acts 7:55). Thus, the seated Son of God stood to welcome one of His own into the heavenly realm. A believer’s death may be unnoticed on earth, but it is front-page news in Heaven. The Son of God takes note. He will be there to welcome us!
So then, the key to getting there is to personally accept his sacrifice that he made upon the cross for your eternal salvation. In part 1 of this four-part eternal security series, I covered the “how” aspect and what one must do to secure one’s spot in Heaven and avoid the horrible alternative (see part 1 in the link above for this vital information).
Now, let’s take a look at that snapshot of the grotesque remains of that conditional eternal security beast being layed to rest in the graveyard of forgetfulness.
Let’s continue to answer the controversial question of whether or not one can possibly lose their salvation once it has been received. Let’s examine those remaining growling scriptures with the big bad teeth that are constantly throwing a fly in the peace ointment of so many saved, born again Christians in the family of God.
Tyler Strombom – I believe we can lose our salvation.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > Tyler Strombom – Why exactly do you think that? What scripture says that? (note: I never heard back from him).
billy bell – If i can interrupt, can salvation be taken away due to falling away (backsliding)?
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > billy bell – This is a question that has been debated endlessly over the years. The word “backslider” or “backsliding” does not appear in the New Testament and is used in the Old Testament primarily of Israel. The Jews, though they were God’s chosen people, continually turned their backs on Him and rebelled against His Word (Jeremiah 8:9). That is why they were forced to make sacrifices for sin over and over in order to restore their relationship with the God they had offended. The Christian, however, has availed himself of the perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ and needs no further sacrifice for his sin. God himself has obtained our salvation for us (2 Corinthians 5:21) and because we are saved by Him, a true Christian cannot fall away so as not to return. Christians do sin (1 John 1:8), but the Christian life is not to be identified by a life of sin. Believers are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have the Holy Spirit in us producing good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23). A Christian life should be a changed life. Christians are forgiven no matter how many times they sin, but at the same time, Christians should live a progressively more holy life as they grow closer to Christ. We should have serious doubts about a person who claims to be a believer yet lives a life that says otherwise. Yes, a true born-again Christian who has genuinely received Christ for salvation who falls back into sin is still saved, but should at some point expect to receive chastisement in the form of painful circumstances. The Bible tells us that if a person denies Christ, he or she never truly knew Christ to begin with …
“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19).
A person who rejects Christ and turns his back on faith is demonstrating that he never belonged to Christ. Those who belong to Christ remain with Christ. Those who renounce their faith never had it to begin with …
“Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself” (2 Timothy 2:11-13).
Some people use the word backslide to mean that a person has lost his or her salvation. However, since a saved person is secure in Christ (John 10:28–29)—God will not kick His children out of His family—that is not how we will use the word. Rather, when we speak of backsliding, we simply mean that someone is growing cold toward Christ. A backslidden condition could indicate the person was never saved to begin with—in which case, the backslider is only showing his true colors. But it’s also possible for children of God to backslide, temporarily. This does not mean that they “lost their salvation temporarily” either. The Bible uses the phrase fall away rather than backslide, but the idea is similar.
In the Bible to “fall away” can mean two different things. In one instance, the person is saved but experiencing a temporary period of questioning that we could call a “crisis of faith.” In the other instance, the person was never saved at all but only temporarily behaving as a saved person would. We will call this taking Christianity for a “test drive.” In Mark 14:27 Jesus tells His disciples, “You will all fall away.” What He meant was that, when He was arrested, they would experience a crisis of faith, a life event so shocking that they would run from Jesus and question the very core of their beliefs. It was a night of offense, a night of stumbling for them. But this was a temporary condition. Three days later, Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to the disciples. Their faith and hope were restored, stronger than ever.
There are events in life, such as the death of a loved one, that may cause us to question God. This is okay, as long as we go to God with those questions rather than using them as excuses to live in rebellion. The result of a crisis of faith is often that we come to know God more intimately than before. In times of trial, we should delve into the Word, pray with persistence (Luke 18:1), and surround ourselves with those whose faith is strong. We see another type of “falling away” in Hebrews 6:4–6 and Luke 8:13. Hebrews 6 describes the apostate, someone who had only “tasted the goodness of the word” (verse 5) and later rejects it. In Luke 8:13 Jesus illustrates apostasy with the rocky soil—some fall away or backslide because “they have no root.” In each of these passages, a person appears outwardly to be a Christian, at least for a while, but he has not committed himself to God. Such a person might be attending church, reading his Bible, listening to Christian music, and hanging out with Christian friends. He likes the wholesome atmosphere and good company that being around Christians affords. But his heart has not changed; he has never truly believed on Christ and who he really is and been born again by personally receiving him. Eventually, he backslides or apostatizes. He had taken Christianity for a test drive and decided he wasn’t buying. In other words, didn’t get saved or born again to begin with as demonstrated in Christ’s parable of the soils. Salvation comes by means of a genuine confession of Jesus as Lord to a heart that believes in Jesus’ death and resurrection (Romans 10:9–10). If a person who has been truly saved later backslides—that is, he slips back into spiritually damaging attitudes and behaviors—the slide will be temporary. The chastening of the Lord will bring him back (see Hebrews 12:4–13). The Good Shepherd will seek out the wandering lamb (Luke 15:3–7). But keep in mind that the wandering lamb out of temporary fellowship with God did not suddenly become lost again while he or she was out of fellowship. If a person who was never saved but only putting on a good front backslides—that is, he drops the charade and shows his true colors—his last condition will be worse than the first (Hebrews 10:26–31). How can we tell one type of backsliding from the other? We can’t always, unless given time, and, even then, we don’t know how much time God will take in restoring the backslider. Only God can see the heart.
If a truly saved believer lapses back into a sin or falls away from the life of a believer and dies before coming back into fellowship with God, he or she is still saved and still went to Heaven. Man is a tri-part being … he is a body, soul and spirit. The part of a person that gets saved is the spirit, the flesh does not. When a person is saved, the spirit of a person gets regenerated, or “born again,” as a result of receiving Christ. 1 John 3 states the following amazing words …
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).
This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave a person causing them to be “unborn.” Any sin that a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. 1 John 3:9 makes that clear. This is why it is impossible for a believer to lose their salvation. We must not forget that Jesus stated the following definitive words:
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12:31-32).
As we can see from what Jesus himself said, the only sin that will not be forgiven is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? Hint, it’s not a verbally spoken curse word against the Holy Ghost. It is the rejection of Christ in unbelief. The reason is because has rejected the only means of their salvation, which the Holy Ghost was the one responsible for you knowing him in the first place. It’s the Holy Ghost that draws one to Christ to begin with. So, to reject Christ, you’ve rejected the Holy Ghost and thus one has committed blasphemy against him. Christ himself makes it clear that it’s the Spirit (Holy Ghost) that is responsible for one being drawn to Christ in the first place. Scripture bears this out. So, bottom line, the only sin that cannot and will not be forgiven is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit … a person who rejects Christ a.k.a. the unsaved person. It’s impossible for a believer to “blaspheme” the Holy Ghost when the seed of the Holy Ghost is residing on the inside of a believer according to 1 John 3. As you saw above, according to 1 John 3, this is impossible.
billy bell > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – What is your opinion on these verses? 1 timothy 5:11 & 12 “But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.”
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > billy bell – “Cast off their first faith”: This refers to a specific covenant young widows made when asking to be included on the widows’ list. Likely, they promised to devote the rest of their lives in service to the church and the Lord. Though well-meaning at the time of their need and bereavement, they were surely to desire marriage again (verse 11), and thus renege on their original pledge. When a widow marries outside of Christ’s will (verse 11), she then incurs judgment (damnation from others because she has broken (cast off) her “first faith,” or primary pledge to obey Him. I’ll emphasize that statement for clarity … CONDEMNATION FROM OTHERS, NOT FROM GOD – For Paul reveals in Romans 8 that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Then there was the special area of ministry for them. But Paul said the younger widows, don’t take them into this special company.
“Refuse them: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having [not damnation, but condemnation], because they have cast off their first faith” (5:11-12).
So Paul says that the younger widows should marry. If they are brought into this special company in ministry within the church, and then should leave that, fall in love and so forth, having made that commitment to Christ, having put the hand to the plough; turning back, they would [feel condemned], not actually be damned or condemned in the sense of losing salvation. Not good. It is better that they just go ahead and marry and bear children and all and not be brought into this special company of ministering widows within the church. For if the church is taking care of them, they’re apt to be just going around from house to house becoming idle, and tattlers and busybodies, speaking about things that they should not be speaking.
Bottom line, this isn’t talking about the prospect of losing salvation. If it were, it would contradict Jesus’ own words in Matthew chapter 6 when he said he would lose no one … “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).
billy bell > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – The verse says “having damnation”, it does not say “damnation from others”, “condemnation from others, not God” or “feel 
condemned”, it plainly says “having damnation”, it does not contradict what it says in Romans 8 about no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because someone cannot be in Christ Jesus and be damned at the same time, as long as they “fight the good fight”, you cannot fight the good fight and believe in the idea you can fall away expecting salvation. The Fathers will is that none should perish, but the bible clearly states that most of mankind will, though it is not the fault of God.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > billy bell – If this passage were talking about salvation, then we would have a serious contradiction in the Bible. John 6:37 says …
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and HIM THAT COMETH TO ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT.”
Hebrews 13:5 says,
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, NOR FORSAKE THEE.”
The Bible never describes salvation as TEMPORARY, but always as ETERNAL. John 10:28 says …
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
If we have ETERNAL LIFE, then we have something which will NEVER END. Seeming the Bible is so clear about salvation, then I Timothy 5:12 must be talking about something else. To discover what that is, we must look at the context — those verses before and after the verse in question. The context of I Timothy 5 is dealing with one thing — widows and their daily needs. I Timothy 5:1-16 says …
“Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any WIDOW have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. Now she that is a WIDOW indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless. But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. Let not a WIDOW be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. But the younger WIDOWS refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan. If any man or woman that believeth have WIDOWS, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are WIDOWS indeed.”
If a widow has a need, then it is the responsibility of her children, all the way down to her nephews, to help meet her needs. Verse 4 says …
“But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.”
This does not mean that a godly widow is going to go around to the family acting like a beggar. Notice verse 5 …
“Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, TRUSTETH IN GOD, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.”
The above widow is trusting in God for what? If she is a Christian, then she is obviously trusting in God for salvation. But THE CONTEXT IS NOT DEALING WITH HER SALVATION, BUT WITH HER DAY-TO-DAY NEEDS. She is not begging individuals to meet her daily needs (food, clothing, housing, transportation, etc.) — she is trusting God to meet those daily needs. So when you get down to verse 12, “Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith,” you are NOT dealing with the widow’s FAITH FOR SALVATION, but with that FAITH OF DAILY TRUSTING THE LORD TO MEET HER NEEDS. She has cast it off in what way? Look at the previous verse, verse 11, and you will see …
“But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry.”
The picture is this. The Christian widow, when she loses her husband, is very brave and relies daily upon the Lord to meet her needs, at first. The Lord is her security. But as is so often the case, the younger widow will shortly begin to long for a husband. The physical companionship that she sees other women enjoying, and the financial security of having a husband, all begin to work on her. And sadly, it seems like so often that it is some unsaved, divorced man of the world that tries to court her. The widow then begins to “wax wanton.” Wantonness is often of an immoral nature, but it does have another definition, too, “A pampered person, luxurious self-enjoyment” (Merriam Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary). The overwhelming desire is to have a husband to care for her, and to be her security. This very thing happen to middle-aged widows. Their family has a testimony for Christ, but then the husband dies. The widow is strong in the Lord, at first, but then some handsome, unsaved, divorced man who is well-established and financially secure in this world, gets his eye on her. It normally does not take long at all, and suddenly you hear that the man has proposed to her, and unbelievably to the Christians who know her, she has agreed to marry him. She has cast off her first faith in two ways:
First, she has cast off her first faith in the Lord to be her security and to meet her needs. And secondly, she has cast off the testimony of her first faith. She has claimed to be a Christian for all of these years, and has taught her own children to never marry an unsaved person — but that is exactly what she does when she gets lonely and in need. That widow will have “damnation,” NOT in the sense of losing her salvation, but in many areas of her life. Damnation means, “condemnation to a punishment or fate; to condemn as invalid; to condemn as a failure” (Merriam Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary). First, that widow will find that all her years of teaching her children are suddenly rendered invalid — of no value; meaningless. She taught them to never marry an unsaved person, but that is exactly what she did. She is thus condemned as a failure in living up to what God says, and what she affirmed all of those years.
Secondly, her life will be condemned to a certain amount of punishment, as God so ordains, because of her disobedience. It may be trials that you cannot see on the outside, that she has to endure — and there will be a lot of trials when a Christian marries an unsaved person. Christian widows sometimes, if not often, marry unsaved men; and their homes which once glorified the Lord, became homes where liquor was kept in the refrigerator; where cigarettes were smoked; and where profanity and using God’s name in vain were commonly heard. You know that, down deep, if they are truly saved, then they are miserable like Lot was when he was living in Sodom. II Peter 2:7,8 says …
“And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)”
In 1 Tim. 5:12 Paul couldn’t have meant the young widows would lose their salvation because to have done so would have contradicted an earlier statement of his that nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:38-39). In Matt. 5:33-37, Jesus said not to make vows because we don’t know what the future will bring and the enemy will use them against us. Paul was advising Timothy to keep the young widows from falling into this trap and bringing disgrace down upon themselves and the Church by not letting them take widows’ vows. Below is a good example of the words “having damnation” not meaning in the sense of losing salvation …
“But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body” (1 Cor 11:28-29).
Damnation seems to imply eternal punishment in hell. But”judgment” is an alternative word, as seen from verses 30, 31 and 32 …
“For this cause many are weak and sickly, … many sleep.”
Judgment here is God “chastening” his own, not loss of salvation. 16. “Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.” (1 Timothy 5:12).
Damnation again means “judgment” taking place in this life, not in eternity in Hell, as seen by “having,” which is present tense, not future in Hell. Wuest paraphrases it:
“incurring (the reproachful) judgment (of their fellow Christians) because they have nullified their first faith.”
The passage is about younger Christian widows who vow not to remarry, but change their mind and marry again, and may therefore incur the judgment of others for breaking their vow.
“For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto 
Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.” (2 Timothy 4:10).
Demas was saved, but a backslidden fellow worker of Paul’s (Colossians 4:14, Philemon 24). There is no mention here of losing salvation. All too often, the pleasures of this world lure Christians to forsake the work of Christ, and to become unfruitful. May God help us to remember the widows in prayer. It is a lonely and difficult life, and we need to help them and encourage them. Galatians 6:2 says … “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”
billy bell > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – Referring to the young widow and
damnation, it says damnation, nothing else. As for Christians who leave christ, they will have damnation, not because christ has forsaken them or cast them out, but because they have forsaken christ, as it says, you will know them by their fruit, fruit that is not bearing good fruit will be cast into the fire, it cannot mean someone who was not saved to begin with because they would never been referred to as fruit in the first place, that does not sound like once saved always saved to me.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > billy bell – Sorry bro, but damnation in the context and usage of this story is not speaking of eternal damnation pertaining to salvation. Often in scripture, certain words have various usages depending on the context of the story and the situation. You haven’t even addressed the very observable points I made concerning that scripture. All you came back with is “it says damnation.” Sorry, but that’s not a viable rebuttle.
Further, what are you going to do with the problem of contradiction of scripture because contradiction is what you get when you hold to the narrative that salvation can be lost? If the Bible truly is the inspired word of God himself, then it’s not going to contain contradiction of doctrine. That would mean that God made a mistake and we couldn’t trust the Bible. What will you do with John 6:39 when Jesus said that he would not lose anyone but raise them up on the last day? What will you do with Romans 6:39 wherein eternal life is referred to as a gift? …
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:39).
So what does God think about gifts? Answer …
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”(Romans 11:29).
Without repentance meaning irrevocable. This means that God is not going to take it away from you. These two scriptures alone blast your interpretation of the usage of the terms “having damnation” in 1 Timothy 5:11-12 right into Hell (pun intended 😆)
You also mentioned the ” bearing fruit” aspect of this. The believer is not the fruit, the believer is the branches that bears the fruit. Jesus is speaking here near the end of His Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5–7). Beginning in verse 13, Jesus discourses at length on the subject of true faith vs. false professions, using the technique of contrast and comparison. Verses 13-14 describe two paths on which people walk through life, the broad road that leads to eternal destruction and the narrow path that leads to eternal life. He introduces here the concept of the “many” and the “few” that He will return to in verses 21-23.
In verses 15-18, He again contrasts the two types of people by using imagery well known to those in an agrarian culture—sheep and wolves, grapes/figs and thorn bushes/thistles, good trees and bad trees, good fruit and bad fruit. Having established the idea of dichotomy in the minds of His hearers, He goes on to apply these truths to the spiritual state of all within His hearing. Jesus presents the two types of people who will come to Him on “that day,” meaning the last day, the day of judgment, the great day fixed by God and unknown to angels and men which will be terrible to some and joyful to others. All will be seeking to enter the kingdom of heaven, but some will be turned away and will react in utter confusion and disappointment as what they thought was their “ticket” to heaven turns out to be worthless. These are those who prophesied in the name of Jesus, meaning either foretelling things to come or preaching the Word in His name. They have even performed miraculous acts such as driving out demons and perhaps healings and other miracles, but all to no avail. But their works were done for their own glory, not His, and were nothing more than “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). In contrast, those who will enter heaven will not do so based on their miraculous achievements and accomplishments or works of any sort, but solely on the basis of obedience to the will of God, which scripture reveals to be believing on and trusting in Christ for personal salvation.
But who are these unfortunate people and how can they do miracles unless they are doing them by God’s power? We know several things about them from the text. First, we know there are many of them, because it is many who are on the broad road to eternal death, as compared to the relative few who have found the narrow path to eternal life. Second, they claim the name of Christ. These are not Muslims, Buddhists, or atheists. These are those who would gladly say, “I am a Christian.” They work their works in Jesus’ name. They pray and heal in Jesus’ name. They preach and teach in Jesus’ name. They build huge churches and ministries in Jesus’ name. They claim a relationship with Him. But they are none of His. In fact, He sends them away, not with commendation for their good works in His name (and many good works are done in Jesus’ name by false professors), but by disowning their every deed and word. He “NEVER” knew them, nor did they ever truly know Him. They weren’t Christians who lost their salvation. They were never part of the elect of God and saved to begin with, contrary to your statement that they were saved Christians. That word “NEVER” destroys your narrative. The ones Christ puts away from Himself with harsh words of condemnation, calling them doers of evil, never came to Him in faith, despite their outward good works and miracles.
Then if these do not belong to God and never did, how do we explain their ability to perform miracles? Can those who do not have the Spirit actually cast out demons and perform miraculous healings and spectacular signs and wonders? There are two possible explanations for the ability of the ungodly to perform such acts. One is that some miracles are done by the power of Satan and his demonic host. They are incredibly powerful beings who can manipulate physical elements to their own ends. Consider the power God allowed Satan to use to afflict Job—lightning, wind (possibly a tornado), and boils all over his body (Job 1:16, 19, 2:7). These are certainly miraculous events. Exodus 7 describes the magicians and sorcerers of Egypt whose “secret arts” impressed many, but clearly these were not men of God. In the New Testament, Paul confronted Elymas the Jewish sorcerer and false prophet, calling him a child of the devil, full of all kinds of deceit and trickery (Acts 13:6-11). So we see that not all miracles come from God and not all who perform miracles in the name of Jesus are truly His. He calls them evildoers because the miracles they perform have evil as their source. In fact, Jesus warned us to be on guard against their deception as the end times draw near (Matthew 24:24).
Second, there are times when God, in His sovereign will and for His purposes, will empower unbelievers to perform miraculous deeds. The prime example is Judas who, along with the other disciples, preached the gospel, healed the sick, cast out demons, cleansed lepers, and even raised the dead. There is nothing to indicate that Judas didn’t have the same power as the other eleven, although he was never a true disciple of Christ. He was a deceiver and the “son of perdition” (John 17:12). Yet God gave him the power to do miracles for His own glory and to accomplish His will.
Jesus goes on to describe those who will be able to call upon His name on the day of judgment. It will be those who hear His words and put them into practice, the same ones referred to in verse 21 as those who obediently do the will of the Father in heaven. True believers are the good trees that produce good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23), the true sheep who are truly saved in Christ. As stated, the unsaved can appear as fruit bearers, but are not truly saved. These are the ones who will enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Further still, you mention “forsaking Christ.” Scripture reveals that those who forsake the
gospel message of Christ never had saving faith to begin with …
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19).
These various points are insurmountable for the conditional salvation view.
“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”
We do indeed have an example in scripture of lost, unsaved people casting out demons. In fact, it doubles as an example and a prophecy …
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, {I never knew you:} depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22).
Notice how he did not say that he knew them and now he doesn’t. He said I “NEVER” knew you, clearly revealing that they were never saved, but yet were casting out demons. Also implying that if you were known, or “saved before,” you would still be saved and that he would still “know you.” This is an unbeliever he is speaking to that actually cast out demons. We see an example of unbelievers or unsaved people casting out demons often in the cult of Catholicism, specifically certain priests.
Your mention of Romans 11 is also taken out of context. How could the apostle Paul write of branches being cut off (v.22), and then in the same breath turn around and say that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable? (v.29) Which is it? Is Paul telling us that a Christian can lose his salvation, or is he saying that regenerate Christians are guaranteed an eternal inheritance of salvation? Or something else altogether? Paul is on record all throughout the New Testament as stating that salvation is by faith through grace, apart from any works or worthiness of man. It would make no sense for him to be saying so here, so we need to dig deeper. Take a closer look at Romans 11. It speaks of Israel, who was hardened in part, and was a branch that was “cut-off” because of widespread unbelief (vs. 20). Paul then admonishes the Gentiles to “continue in his kindness. Otherwise {they] too will be cut off.”(v. 22)
If we understand the olive tree metaphor we will gain a more complete understanding of the Text. This may be something worth studying more deeply but for purposes of brevity I will simply say the following: Romans 11 has broadened the the discussion of individual salvation which we saw in Romans 9 to one speaking of corporate people groups joined in covenantal relationship to Christ – a large scale, big-picture perspective of the era(s) of God’s sovereign election and timing of His favor to Jews or Gentiles: when He sovereignly chooses to impart faith and redemption to one or the other of these corporate entities. And just as the Bible says, not the children of Abraham by physical descent are God’s children, but only the children of the promise are so regarded .. so also not all persons who are in the visible church are “Christ’s offspring” but only the children of promise. But Paul warns if the Gentiles begin waning in faith en masse, God can cut them off and graft the Israelites back in. This isn’t talking about an individual losing salvation and then coming to faith again after a long period of unbelief (as would be the case of corporate Israel in this passage). No, it is discussing a the big picture of God’s plans for the salvation of people groups, specifically Jews and Gentiles. That God hardened the Jews in part for a time (except for the elect among them) (see Rom 11:7-11) and God did this so the Gentiles could benefit for a time … and then after the full number of the Gentiles come in God declares that He can corporately bring in the Jews again.
Most importantly here, in the context of this passage, the Apostle Paul is directing his comments to a body of Gentiles, stressing the fact that God’s timing of the election of Jews or Gentiles is His own decision and a matter of His own sovereign authority. Also that God can move His election to or from Jews or Gentile at a time of His choosing. Giving them fair warning that faithfulness would be the way to go. This is not speaking of particular individuals as if God were saying He intends on plucking salvation away from you or your neighbor, but rather towards (or away from) Jews or Gentiles “AS PEOPLE GROUPS.” In the Western world, many people like yourself often have a tendency to over-personalize this text as well as others. But the text here is clearly speaking of corporate favor (or disfavor) in the plan of God, not a personal salvation issue.
To summarize and personalize: God has authority to remove the candlestick (Rev 2:5), from nations, tribes and peoples in a time of His sovereign choosing. Professing Christians who are Gentiles are CORPORATELY in outward covenant with Christ, so Romans 11 is speaking more about the question of collective ecclesiology, not individual soteriology. This passage is a warning to a collective body, the visible church, which is corporately joined to Christ in a covenant relationship, but this does not mean that every INDIVIDUAL in it is in saving union with Christ. “Union with Christ” applies to the elect, and only to the elect. To them, “…the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” But since non-elect covenant members can apostatize, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches (John 15:2-12; 15:6) and while they are joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus and have received the covenant sign of baptism, but the faith of some is spurious because they were never truly in saving union with Christ (1 John 2:19). So the question the Bible appears to ask really isn’t whether a believer can lose his salvation or not. Rather its whether a person has salvation in the first place.
There are many professing Christians who simply do not believe some element(s) of the Gospel. It is possible they are still partly trusting in their own righteousness, or they do not really believe in the physical resurrection, or perhaps reject the idea that Jesus is the eternal second Person of the Trinity, or do not affirm that Jesus is a sinless substitution and therefore the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. Maybe they like the idea of an all-loving Jesus, but find His other Perfections troubling. These facts are demonstrated in his parable of the soils.
Bottom line, you failed in attempting to use this scripture as a reference that salvation can be lost. It clearly contradicts Paul’s other teaching that says that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. Your belief has Paul contradicting himself.
You also mention the scripture in 1 Corinthians 9:27 and Paul’s concern of becoming a “castaway.” Taking a look at the various commentaries on this verse, most are in agreement that the prize is not salvation. The prize is simply faithfulness and remaining a faithful servant so that he can achieve the ultimate prize of expanding Christ’s kingdom – avoiding becoming a “useless preacher.” Paul was not afraid of being cast away by God at the last. What he aimed at was this, — as he had entered the lists, as a Christian minister, to fight for Christ, to wrestle against principalities and powers, to seek to win souls for Christ, he must keep his bodily powers and passions so in subjection that, at the last, when the prizes were distributed, he would be found to have won his own. This lines up with what Paul taught about the judgment seat of Christ that occurs after the rapture and Christians are judged not for salvation, but for rewards received for work done while in our bodies as Christians in service to the kingdom of God. This is quite another matter from being “a castaway” from salvation and eternal life. If one were to paraphrase what Paul was actually saying here, here is what he would be saying …
“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor 9:27). This prize has to do with rewards received for service as a Christian in the body. Nothing to do with salvation and eternal life. If it were, then Paul massively contradicted himself.
Bottom line, you have failed again by using this scripture in your attempt to prove that salvation can be lost.
You then attempt to use the following scripture to prove that salvation can be lost …
“Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you – unless you believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).
Though some in the Corinthian church were beginning to deny the resurrection of Christ, it is very clear from the passage that the Apostle Paul is sure about their position: They had “received” and “believed” the gospel that he had preached to them (the past tenses denote completed action) and they now “stand” in that gospel (the perfect tense denotes past action with continuing results). Their stand refers to their positional justification, which is unquestioned and was affirmed earlier: “you were justified” (1 Cor. 6:11). There is no question that Paul’s letter addresses the Corinthians as genuine believers (See 1 Cor. 1:2, 4, 9; 3:16; 4:14; 6:11, 15, 19-20; 11:1; 12:13). However, the present tense “you are saved” clearly depends on the condition “if you hold fast that word” referring to the gospel. Does this mean that the readers can lose their salvation or prove they were never truly saved if they do not “hold fast”?
The view that Paul is telling the readers that they can lose or disprove their salvation comes from rigidly defining “are saved” as salvation from hell. The basic definition of “saved” is delivered or preserved, and is used in the Bible for deliverance from a number of things (illness, death, enemies, danger, sin). This requires us to ask “Delivered from what?” As the letter to the Corinthians shows, these believers had a lot of sin issues from which they needed deliverance. The sequence of thought is important: Paul preached the gospel, the Corinthians received it, and they now stand in it. What’s left is to experience that salvation in an on-going sense, thus Paul uses the present tense “you are [being] saved.” If Paul were speaking of hell, he would have spoken more naturally of their final salvation: “you will be saved.” The experience of on-going deliverance from sin in the believer’s life has a condition: One must “hold fast” to the gospel. This is not an assumed accomplishment or a hypothetical condition, but a real one (The Greek first class condition does not justify the translation of “if” as “since.”). The verb for “hold fast” (katecho) is used in the New Testament in relation to the Christian’s sanctification experience (See Luke 8:15; 1 Thes. 5:21; Heb. 10:23). Paul is saying that the Corinthians must continue to follow the truth that they learned from the gospel in order to experience its sanctifying effects. This is not a condition of eternal salvation, but a very real condition of sanctification. It is therefore possible for believers not to hold fast. The New Testament shows that believers may not persevere or hold fast to the truth (1 Tim. 5:14-15; 6:20-21; 2 Tim. 1:5; 2:17-18, 24-26; 4:9-10, 14-16).
The experience of on-going deliverance from sin in the believer’s life has a condition: One must “hold fast” to the gospel. This is not an assumed accomplishment or a hypothetical condition, but a real one (The Greek first class condition does not justify the translation of “if” as “since.”). The verb for “hold fast” (katecho) is used in the New Testament in relation to the Christian’s sanctification experience (See Luke 8:15; 1 Thes. 5:21; Heb. 10:23). Paul is saying that the Corinthians must continue to follow the truth that they learned from the gospel in order to experience its sanctifying effects. This is not a condition of eternal salvation, but a very real condition of sanctification. It is therefore possible for believers not to hold fast. The New Testament shows that believers may not persevere or hold fast to the truth (1 Tim. 5:14-15; 6:20-21; 2 Tim. 1:5; 2:17-18, 24-26; 4:9-10, 14-16).
Based on the gospel he preached and they received (believed), Paul can say that the Corinthians “stand” in its salvation. Their position is secure, however their experience of being delivered (saved) by the provision of the same gospel is dependent on their steadfastness to its truth. That is why Paul reminds them of the gospel he preached to them in verses 3-4: “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.” It is the same gospel he had “received” early in his ministry (Gal. 1:11-12; 2:16), “preached” to them on his first visit (Acts 18:1-8), and explained to them earlier in the epistle (1 Cor. 1:17-21; 2:5).
The word saved then, is being used to describe the experience of living out the truths of the gospel which center on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The death and resurrection of Christ is not only the basis of one’s salvation from hell, it is also the basis of one’s identity and experience as a Christian. In Romans 6:2-5 Paul teaches that the believer’s union with Christ is the basis for a life of victory over sin. As Christ died and arose, so also those who are in Him have died to sin and have been raised with Him to
walk in a new life. No one can be delivered from sin unless they continue to identify with the death and resurrection of Christ taught in the gospel. This is what Paul means by “if you hold fast that word which I preached to you.” Any defect in the gospel or our identification with Christ in His death and resurrection will result in a defective Christian experience. In other words, if the Corinthians do not continue to hold to the gospel Paul preached, they would have “believed in vain” because their initial faith in the gospel would not produce a sanctifying experience in them, which is one of its intended results. The term “in vain” means to no avail. It is used in the New Testament to describe something that does not reach its intended goal; it is never used to question the reality of the action associated with it (For example, see 1 Cor. 15:10, 58). If the Corinthians deny the resurrection of Christ, they cannot be delivered from sinful living, which makes their initial faith in the gospel fall short of its intended result of their sanctification.
Bottom line, you failed again in your attempt at proving that salvation can be lost.
You then attempt to use Collossians 1:22-23 to prove one can lose salvation, but as we’ll see, this is also taken out of context not only by you, but by many others. It is important, of course, to determine the spiritual condition of those being addressed. Fortunately the text is very explicit. Paul says that the Colossians he was addressing were once alienated from God, but were now reconciled to Him by the death of Christ. People who are no longer alienated from God are clearly believers.
The fact that those being addressed were believers is confirmed by Paul’s exhortation to “continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel.” This is in addition to Paul’s earlier reference to the faith which the readers had in Jesus Christ (1:4). Unbelievers by definition do not believe. They have no faith to continue in, no hope to hang on to.
The key question is this: What did Paul mean when he said that God reconciled them in order “to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight”? It is a great mistake to view this purpose statement as dealing with the possession of eternal life.
Reconciliation has two goals. One goal of reconciliation is eternal life. That goal is guaranteed and is fulfilled immediately at the very moment of faith (John 3:16; 6:47). The second goal, being presented holy, blameless, and beyond reproach before God, is neither guaranteed nor fulfilled immediately at the point of faith.
The second goal concerns a future presentation. The question is, what is in view here? Is there to be some judgment of believers? Is there some time when believers will be presented before God? The answer is yes. The Judgment Seat of Christ is such a time. Believers will be judged and then presented by the Lord Jesus before God the Father. Some will be found to have been good and faithful servants (Luke 19:16-19). These are those who will be presented as having lived lives which were holy, blameless, and above reproach. Others will be found to have been worthless servants (Luke 19:20-26) and they will not be presented as having lived exemplary lives. Many miss this simple solution because they jump to the conclusion that the terms holy, blameless, and beyond reproach must be taken in an absolute sense. However, the original Greek words used here are used elsewhere in the Scriptures to refer to the actual experience of those whose lives are exemplary, but certainly not perfect. For example, elders are required to be beyond 
reproach in their experience (Titus 1:6). Likewise, the 144,000 Jewish evangelists of the Tribulation are said to be blameless before the throne of God, since in their mouth was found no deceit (Rev 14:5). This clearly refers to their experience in this life, not to their position in Christ. Even the term holy is used in Scripture to refer to experience. Peter, citing a key OT verse from Leviticus, tells his believing readers, “Be holy, for I am holy.” Similarly Paul refers to unmarried women believers who “care about the things of the Lord, that [they] may be holy both in body and in spirit” (1 Cor 7:34).
Trusting in Christ alone is the sole condition for eternal salvation. However, continuing in the faith is required in order to be presented at the Judgment Seat of Christ as holy, blameless, and beyond reproach. Continuing in the faith takes obedience over a lifetime. As Paul said elsewhere, “Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart” (Gal 6:9). There was particular need for this stress on continuing in the faith at Colossae. The Colossian church was besieged with heretical teachings. These teachings were a mixture of Greek philosophy, mysticism, and Jewish legalism. For example, Paul had to warn the church not to worship angels (2:18) or to adopt ascetic lifestyles in the hope that neglecting the body could somehow aid in keeping the flesh at bay (2:20-23).
Colossians 1:21-23 does not teach that eternal salvation can be lost through failure to abide in the faith. Nor does it teach that one who fails to abide proves he wasn’t saved in the first place. What it does teach is that abiding in the faith is required for one to have a good report at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Unstated here, but found in many other passages, is the truth that those who are found to have been good and faithful servants will obtain eternal treasures and rewards as a result of this good report.
billy bell > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – Regarding 1 corinthians 9:27, you refer to “castaway” as simply being a useless preacher, which again, is your own interpretation. Regarding 1 corinthians 15:1-2, here Paul clearly says that to be saved you must hold onto the gospel, it does not mention sanctification in this verse, which you mention more than once, yet again, your own interpretation. Regarding Collosians 1:22-23, you seem to skip a small word that shows you will be holy, unblamable, & unreprovable in God’s sight IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled.. You then say that trusting in Christ alone is the sole condition for eternal salvation, which begs the question, what if someone stops believing in christ? Does that mean they was not saved in the first place? If it does, then why did Paul exhort those Christians in Galations 6:9 “Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart”?
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > billy bell – Well, first off, it is not my opinion. My “lengthy interpretation” is what is required if one is going to abide by the biblical command to rightly divide the word of truth …
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15).
This is far from “my own opinion” as you say. It is called “sound exegesis.” Just “quoting scripture” as you proudly proclaim you’ve done is not sound exegesis and is not rightly dividing the word of truth. Sound exegesis, even if lengthy, is necessary to avoid false interpretation that comes with just “quoting scripture” and not finding out the intent and meaning behind it, especially since the Bible is set in the context of a culture and manner of speaking from long ago far removed from modern western mindset and thinking. Looking at it from a modern western cultural mindset and just “quoting scripture” with no exegesis behind it results in some false assumptions. So that argument doesn’t fly.
As far as your contention that I simply said that Paul would be regarded as a “useless preacher” was not all that there was in my comment concerning that scripture. You conveniently left out all the other exegesis surrounding what Paul actually meant. You conveniently have ignored it and just focused in on that one little statement. I already explained how and why Paul was not referring to losing salvation. Again, no mention from you regarding it and no viable rebuttal. All you came back with to counter my exegesis was “that’s your opinion.” No, it’s not my opinion. You yet again failed to realize that if it meant the loss of salvation, then Paul just contradicted himself because he said in Romans 11 that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. The castaway narrative that Paul presents has to do with losing reward at the judgment seat of Christ and being disqualified. This disqualification of being a castaway is referring to an event that occurs after the rapture called the “Judgment Seat of Christ” where rewards are given for service done in the body. With this interpretation, Paul’s seaming contradiction clears away and it also harmonizes with other scripture he wrote that clearly demonstrates that salvation cannot be lost (Romans 11:29). If your view is held, then Paul clearly contradicts himself. Again, you seem to have no answer for this.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, you absurdly claim in your response that Paul was not talking of sanctification here because the word “sanctification” was not mentioned by him in this particular scripture, but was instead talking about salvation. This doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Paul didn’t need to use the word sanctification, it was already understood that this is what he was talking about, not salvation. Again, I already explained why, but you seem to skip right on past my exegesis as to why and offer no sound rebuttal. Sanctification is strongly implied here, he doesn’t have to say it because he already made clear that salvation cannot be lost in Romans 11:29. The idea he is espousing here in being a castaway is sanctification so as to be sure that rewards will be received at his other revelation of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Even Jesus implied things in his ministry that he didn’t have to directly say, but clearly meant. So did Paul contradict himself in Romans 11:29 then when he said the gifts of God are without repentance????
Regarding your issue with the word “IF” in Colossians 1:22-23 – The misuse of this passage has too often undermined the believer’s assurance. Incorrect interpretations usually start with the assumption that the phrase “to present you holy, blameless, and irreproachable in His sight” means entrance into Heaven. The typical Arminian interpretation sees this presentation-salvation as dependent on the believer’s faithfulness in conduct and to the gospel. In other words, salvation can be lost. The common Reformed interpretation views this passage through the lens of perseverance. They see the conditional “if you continue” referring back to the reconciliation of verse 21 and/or the presentation of verse 22, which they take as entrance into Heaven. If a supposed Christian does not persevere (continue) in faithful conduct and faith in the gospel, it will prove that this person was never really a Christian (or reconciled) to begin with.
Two interpretations avoid these theological pitfalls and make better use of the text and context. The first interpretation assumes that the “if” has in view the reconciliation and/or the presentation, but also assumes that the presentation is referring to final salvation. Those who hold this view explain that the Greek construction of the conditional “if” expresses confidence, not uncertainty. In other words, the apostle is saying “If… and I’m sure you will …” Thus the conditional sounding “if” really means “since.” However, such certainty can not always be assumed for this form of the Greek conditional statement.
The better interpretation takes the presentation of verse 22 as the subject of this word “IF.” Furthermore, the presentation does not refer to salvation or entrance into Heaven, but the prospect of one’s evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ, the bema in which rewards are either received or lost, which is the very message of this sermon by Pastor Charles Stanley. In this view, the apostle is declaring that faithfulness in conduct and a sure hope in the promise of the gospel will yield a holy, blameless and irreproachable life at the bema. This view is commendable for many reasons:
It correctly and consistently assumes the saved status of the Colossian readers. Paul is not writing to pretend Christians, but “saints and faithful brethren in Christ” (1:2) who have a reputation for faith and love (1:3), who have been delivered from the power of Satan into the kingdom of Christ (1:13), and who are redeemed (1:14) and reconciled (1:21). How inconsistent and confusing it would be for Paul to tell them they are reconciled to God in verse 21 then make it uncertain or conditional in verse 23! Besides, unbelievers do not have a faith in which to continue! It does not make salvation dependent upon the believer’s performance, but is consistent with the gospel of free grace which Paul emphasizes in 1:5-6 and reminds them of in verse 23. It reinforces the already expressed concept found in 1:3-5 that the fruit of hope is sanctification. There the Colossians are commended for their “faith in Jesus Christ” and their “love for all the saints.” This faith and love is “because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven.” Hope (as an expression of desire plus expectation and very close to faith in meaning) stimulates a life of faith toward Christ and love toward others. It is consistent with the non-absolute sense of spiritual maturity expressed as the apostle’s goal of ministry in 1:28: “that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.” The presentation is not to qualify one as saved, but to qualify one as complete or mature. The concept of being acceptably presented to the Lord is found elsewhere in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thes. 5:23; Jude 24). Romans 14:10 uses the same verb (paristhmi) to indicate the believer’s appearance before the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ. “In His sight” (which can also be translated “before Him”) reminds of the believer’s accounting before the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ where each believer will be evaluated and rewarded according to his deeds (Rom.14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:13; 2 Cor. 5:10). The qualitative terms, “holy, and blameless, and irreproachable” are not used absolutely or forensically, but denote a relative sanctification which is the goal of ministry (1:28). They are used in the same way as the terms for qualifications of imperfect elders and deacons (1 Tim. 3:1-10; Titus 1:5-9).
The achievement of this goal, to be presented “holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight,” depends on their not being moved away from their hope, which they heard and believed in the gospel. We note that they had in fact heard and accepted this hope in the gospel. Thus the warning is not to shift away from the position of confidence in their future which they presently enjoyed. Hope was their anchor for spirituality. The passage reminds of Hebrews 6:18-19 where hope is called an “anchor of the soul,” that which brings us into the presence of God, the safest place possible. The Colossians will reach their spiritual goal only if they remain in this safe harbor firmly anchored to Christ Himself.
This passage does not speak of eternal salvation dependent on the believer’s perseverance in the faith. Such an interpretation makes assurance of eternal salvation impossible. Rather, it expresses the believer’s assurance in terms of a sure hope that God will keep His promise in the gospel. To lose hope is to lose assurance. To lose hope and assurance is to lose the stimulus for the two indispensables of sanctification – a living faith in Christ and love for others which obtain a good presentation at the judgment seat of Christ. The message of this passage is clear: Stay grounded in the grace and hope of the gospel.
So, your issue with the word “IF” is a non starter. Sorry, but you have failed again.
You asked, “if someone stops believing in christ? Does that mean they was not saved in the first place? If it does, then why did Paul exhort those Christians in Galations 6:9 “Let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart”?
First off, if someone “stops believing in Christ, that does indeed mean that they were not saved to begin with. Again, Christ demonstrates these types of people in his parable of the soils. Furthermore, John in his epistles says the following …
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19).
This squares exactly with Jesus’ parable of the soils. As you can see, John explicitly says that if you leave, you did not have saving faith to begin with. You may dabble with Christianity, but it doesn’t mean you truly believe what you are dabbling with.
You then attempt to make Paul’s statement in Galatians 6:9 to mean salvation. Where on God’s green earth do you get the idea that this is talking of salvation???? After exhorting the believers in Galatia and warning them of the things they should avoid (Galatians 5:1—6:8), Paul may have known they would be feeling overwhelmed with the responsibilities of the Christian life. So he encourages them with the words of verse 9: “Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
Paul, perhaps better than anyone else, knew how wearying the spiritual battle can be. He ends his warnings about sin, the works of the flesh, and the deceitfulness of the world by encouraging the Galatians, and all believers, to remember the joyful harvest we will reap if we persevere in doing good. “As we have opportunity,” Paul says in the next verse, “let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers” (Galatians 6:10).
We all know what it means to do good and not evil. Paul has just summarized the works of the flesh (which are doing evil) and the fruit of the Spirit (which results in doing good) in Galatians 5:19–26. Doing good involves yielding to the Spirit and exhibiting the fruit He produces—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. When these things are dominant in our lives, doing good is the inevitable result.
We need this exhortation to not grow weary in doing good because “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Mark 14:38). In view of our own natural weakness and the opposition of evil spirits and evil men, the best intentions for doing good can be easily derailed. Christians often feel there is so much work to be done that we cannot possibly do it all. There are so many needs, so many calls on our time, energy, and finances, and there is often so much ingratitude among those we try to benefit that we can easily become exhausted and disheartened. Doing what’s right is not easy in a fallen world, especially when it seems no one notices and there is little recompense for all our troubles. Is it worth serving the Lord? Paul says, “Yes!”
Growing weary in doing good is an ever-present danger in the Christian life. But there are things we can do to minimize weariness. Jesus scheduled times of rest, and so should we (Mark 6:31). Overcommitting ourselves is a primary cause of weariness among Christians. We want so much to contribute and to respond to God’s love by pouring ourselves into ministry for His sake that we risk burnout. Discernment is essential. God will provide for each need He wants to fulfill. He is, after all, in charge of it all. Not a sparrow falls without His seeing it (Matthew 10:29). He will ordain the means to accomplish His ends. Sometimes all He really wants from the overcommitted is for them to quiet their hearts and be still before Him (Psalm 46:10; cf. Luke 10:41).
Paul points us past our labors to the prize at the end: those who persevere in doing good are promised to reap rewards. When we become disheartened, the comforting presence of the Holy Spirit brings relief and gratitude to our hearts and glory to God. Just like the sower of seed must wait for the harvest, the Christian must wait patiently for the rewards that will inevitably come from the Giver of all good things (James 1:17). We will not give up, because our Lord is faithful. “Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58).
This is a far cry from talking about the loss of salvation. You are reading things into that verse that are just not there.
James Adkins – You can make the Bible say about anything you want it to say when you take verses out of context, such as eternal security.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > James Adkins – Which verse is taken out of context? The evidence shows that those who espouse the doctrine that salvation can be lost for the saved believer are actually the ones that are taking certain verses out of context. When shown those verses that say otherwise and shown the true interpretation of the cherry picked butchered scriptures that you all use, none can seem to find the answer for the problem of contradiction of scripture that this view presents.
James Adkins > END TIMES:DARKNESS DESCENDING – The Bible makes it so plain that those who practice sin are of the devil. What a disgrace it would be to God for His enemies to be eternally secured.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > James Adkins – So which scripture are you basing that statement off?
James Adkins > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – 1 John 3:8-10
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > James Adkins – As I said, if that verse of scripture is saying what you think it’s saying, not only do you have a contradiction with other scripture that reveals the eternal security of the believer, you also have a direct contradiction in verse 9 which reveals an amazing fact. That fact is this … a born again, saved believer cannot sin …
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9).
This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 3. Furthermore, your view would contradict John 6:39 wherein Jesus said he will lose no one …
“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).
“It also contradicts Romans 6:36 …
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
Here, you can see that eternal life is declared a “gift” from God. So what does God think about gifts? Answer …
“For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).
That means that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable … meaning that God is not going to take it away from you. This scripture directly contradicts your view of 1 John 3:8-10.
So, I’ll now reveal what 1 John 3:8-10 is really saying. As you’ll see, it has been misinterpreted on your part and by many others. This is obviously the case since your view of it would contradict scripture as I’ve just shown.
“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother” (1 John 3:8-10).
Those who read 1 John carefully will notice John’s use of absolute contrasts: light/darkness, know God/not know God, love his brother/hate his brother, life/death, Christ/Antichrist. Some find especially troublesome the contrast of children of God/children of the devil. Who is being called “children of the devil?” Is there any way a Christian can be “of the devil,” or could that only refer to unsaved people?
Any study of the particulars of 1 John must start with the spiritual state of the readers and the purpose of the epistle. It is clear that the readers are Christians, even in the immediate context of our passages under consideration. In 3:10 it is stated that the one “not of God” does not love “his brother.” Only a Christian has a spiritual brother. It is also clear that John’s purpose for writing is to enhance fellowship between the readers, God, and the apostolic circle (1:3-4), not to propose tests by which the readers can know they are eternally saved.
If this passage is saying that those who sin and are of the devil are unsaved, then all professing Christians are unsaved, because all Christians sin. That is made clear in 1:7-10. Some translators have yielded to their theological systems to translate the present tense of the verb poieo (to do) in verse 8 as “practices sin” as if John is referring only to habitual sin (as they also translate the verb sin, hamartano, in verse 9 as “practice[s] sin” or “continue to sin.” See the ESV, NASB, NET, NIV). This would demand the readers impose a subtlety of interpretation on the present tense that is not normal or readily apparent in the text (This argument applies to the present tense in 3:6, 7, and 9). The habitual interpretation of the present tense introduces troublesome subjective issues of how much sin, what kind of sin, and how often can one sin, which make the test-of-salvation interpretation a disaster to any Christian who is introspective at all.
The Scriptures remind us that Christians sin and are even capable of murder (James 4:2; 1 Peter 4:15). By his use of contrasts, John is distinguishing two different sources for Christian behavior. He did this in 3:9 where the believer in his regenerate person cannot sin because Jesus Christ cannot sin. That means sin must come from elsewhere, which is ultimately the devil who “has sinned from the beginning” (3:8). It was the devil who deceived man into sin causing man to have a sin nature. Sin is contrary to Jesus Christ’s purpose which was to destroy the devil’s works. Satan and Christ are totally at odds in their purposes and characters. When a believer does right, he manifests his God-given divine nature (3:9), but when he sins, he manifests his Satan-inspired sin nature (3:8, 10). The word “children” (tekna) in reference to God or the devil is not used biologically as in a genetic relationship, but is used for those who have characteristics derived from another person, that is, a kind or class of persons (It is used this way in Matt. 11:19/Luke 7:35; Gal. 4:31; Eph. 2:3; 5:8; 1 Peter 3:6.). John is simply noting the ultimate origin of a believer’s actions.
Christians sin, and when they do, their actions must be sourced in the devil’s influence, not God’s. Sin does not prove that one is not a Christian, only that he is representing the devil and his will. A Christian shows himself to be a child of the devil or “of the devil” by doing the devil’s will and works. It is futile and damaging to test one’s salvation or try to prove one is unsaved by the reality of sin in one’s life. The only test of salvation given in 1 John is whether one has believed in and possesses Jesus Christ, the Son of God (5:1, 11-13). That is the only test that keeps the gospel of grace totally free from human merit or performance.
Bottom line, the above points reveal that you’ve taken those verses out of context in your attempt to show that salvation can be lost.
James Adkins > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – You must not believe eternal 
security like Charles Stanley. He believes a Christian can live a life of sin and remain saved. Nothing can be more unbiblical. You cannot be living in sin and have the seed of God remain in you at the same time, just as you cannot live in sin and have the Spirit of God abide in you the same time. There’s no contradiction with the way I interpret it. The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Tim. 4:1. Only a Christian can depart from the faith. We are warned from Genesis to Revelation that we must obey God.
Furthermore, Jesus said that one must be “born again” to inherit eternal life. Not only does your view contradict John 6:39, but it also contradicts Jesus’ statement of being born again. It’s very interesting that Jesus used that term of having to be “born again” in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus put an absolute lock on the concept of not being able to lose your salvation with just that one term he used. When one is born in the natural, one can’t become unborn can he? The obvious answer is no. Your view has Jesus contradicting himself all over the place.
You then use 1 Timothy 4:1 out of context. This scripture is not speaking of a saved believer departing from the faith. Here’s why: Ultimately, the sign of an apostate is that he eventually falls away and departs from the truth of God’s Word and His righteousness. The apostle John signifies this is a mark of a false believer …
“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us” (1 John 2:19).
As you can clearly see here from John’s words, those who fall away from the faith is the mark of a person who does not have saving faith to begin with. Your citation of 1 Timothy 4:1 is not a problem at all for the eternal security view. Paul is basically saying that “In the last days, some will manipulate and change the handed-down teaching.” The idea that Paul is conveying here has to do with people manipulating and changing the message that was handed down from the apostles – people would believe variants of the true teaching – ideas thrown in there by “deceiving spirits” and “demons” (v. 1). As we look back at early church history, we see exactly that happening. There were many long-term arguments in the early church over the true teachings about Jesus. These were not on minor matters – these were core doctrine like whether Jesus only appeared to be human but really wasn’t and whether Jesus actually died on the cross.
So when Paul is talking about those who will “abandon the faith, or depart from the faith,” he’s speaking of the faith there in terms of our beliefs (for example, the “faith of our fathers”). There would be those who teach things that were contrary to the truth. So that means that those who depart are not saved Christians departing from faith somehow. As I said above, 1 John 2:9 answers that one with a fierceness.
You then go on to say that we must “obey God.” First off, the “obey” scriptures in the New Testament when speaking of salvation is being taken out of context by yourself. We read in Romans 10:16 about “obeying the gospel.” Obeying the gospel to receive salvation as stated in Hebrews 5:8-9, 2 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 Peter 4:17 is speaking about believing on Christ for salvation. First off, one has to properly understand exactly what the gospel is in order to properly obey it. Jesus explained what the gospel is in many places, and guess what, it’s not obedience in performing works to obtain salvation or keeping it. Jesus plainly said that the gospel message of salvation is wrapped up in faith in him (John 3:15-16) and John 3:18 which boldly declares …
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
See, it’s faith, not works period. That being the case, the only way to “obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” as stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 is to believe. That is what these “obey” scriptures are speaking about.
With all due respect, you have again failed to prove that salvation can be lost and you still have not explained the fact that the conditional salvation view contradicts Jesus own words when he said that he will lose no one and Paul saying that the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.
James Adkins > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – Believe what you want. I’m going to stick with the Bible.
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END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING 